TE: What does this mean? Virtually everyone, if not everyone, ignorantly sins. Does this mean no one is reconciled to God? Let's just consider non-SDA Christians. If your statement were true, it would mean no non-SDAs are truly reconciled to God.

MM: To be truly, fully, completely reconciled to God means to be like Jesus, to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us. People who are innocently ignorant of this or that truth cannot live in harmony with it, right?

TE: What I've repeatedly said is that God reveals truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. Do you agree with this?

MM: Yes, but in a different context. God exposes to our sight, in light of the cross, our sinful habits during the process of conversion. He does not wait until we complete the process to reveal certain sinful habits we were unable or unwilling to confess or forsake.

TE: Our conversion is not contingent upon God's having revealed all truth to us, but rather, upon faith. We are accountability to light we have access to, not for things we don't know (assuming we have not willingly avoided such knowledge).

MM: Converted in what way? Converted from greater sins to lesser sins, or from more sins to less sins? If we are not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded then we have not completed the process of conversion.

TE: 1.The appointed way is faith. 2.You've never said how many habits are revealed to a "truly converted" person. How many do you think there are? If you can provide some figure, then I can make some comment as to whether I agree or not.

MM: The appointed way is to lean how to live, by faith, in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Also, it is you who believes Jesus waits to reveal certain sinful habits until we are converted and born again.

Seems Tom was right. We use the same word but mean different things by it.

TE: You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?

MM: Tom, Jesus raised up the Remnant Church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages. “Thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.” (Isa 58:12) Which church do you believe is the Remnant Church of prophecy? I believe it is the SDA church.

You are the only person I'm aware of that holds to this idea of conversion. I'd suggest that in the future, rather than waiting for many posts, whenever you use the word "conversion" that you explain what you mean, because you have a unique definition for this word, and no one will know what you're talking about until you get to the point to where you've defined what you mean by "conversion." We're on page 9 of this topic, and only now is this coming out.

TE: What does this mean? Virtually everyone, if not everyone, ignorantly sins. Does this mean no one is reconciled to God? Let's just consider non-SDA Christians. If your statement were true, it would mean no non-SDAs are truly reconciled to God.

MM: To be truly, fully, completely reconciled to God means to be like Jesus, to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us.

One is reconciled to God by faith. Here's an examplanation from Waggoner:





These go together, one right after the other. I split them up to avoid the scrolling. Of particular interest is that explanation as to how we obtain peace with God. We obtain peace with God when we cease to fight against Him.

Regrading being fully reconciled, we are fully reconciled when we are justified by faith.



We *were* reconciled to God. Now, much more, "being reconciled" indicated a completed action. We can be fully reconciled to God, and know that this is the case. It's not dependent upon the revelation of all our sinful habits, and confessing them all, but upon faith in Christ. We are reconciled to God by faith. Why? Because it is by faith that we apprehend the love of God which is beyond knowledge. This melts our heart, motivating us to stop fighting against Him.[/color]

People who are innocently ignorant of this or that truth cannot live in harmony with it, right?

One does not live in harmony with truth, but with God. One can live in harmony with God by faith, even without being perfect.

TE: What I've repeatedly said is that God reveals truth to us as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. Do you agree with this?

MM: Yes, but in a different context.

Why is the context different? This is a general principle, isn't it? There's never a point to where we know all truth so that this stops, is there?

God exposes to our sight, in light of the cross, our sinful habits during the process of conversion. He does not wait until we complete the process to reveal certain sinful habits we were unable or unwilling to confess or forsake.

According to you He does! He waits, in certain circumstances, for smoking, for polygamy, for drinking, just to name three. He also waits for the other habits related to the first four commandments, since these all don't count, since only the last six count. So breaking the Sabbath doesn't count in your list of sinful habits, correct? I suppose using God's name in vain, being in the first four, also wouldn't count.

TE: Our conversion is not contingent upon God's having revealed all truth to us, but rather, upon faith. We are accountability to light we have access to, not for things we don't know (assuming we have not willingly avoided such knowledge).

MM: Converted in what way?

By faith in Christ. The way that Christ laid out for Nicodemus. Christ knocks on the door of our heart. We open the door, and He enters in and fellowships with us. That way.

Converted from greater sins to lesser sins, or from more sins to less sins? If we are not living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded then we have not completed the process of conversion.

Conversion is not about sins. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith. What you are calling the "process of conversion" would be better termed "the process of sanctification."

TE: 1.The appointed way is faith. 2.You've never said how many habits are revealed to a "truly converted" person. How many do you think there are? If you can provide some figure, then I can make some comment as to whether I agree or not.

MM: The appointed way is to lean how to live, by faith, in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Also, it is you who believes Jesus waits to reveal certain sinful habits until we are converted and born again.

And you too!! For example, you've mentioned smoking and pologamy as examples (in certain cases). I assume drinking must be an example as well, if Luther wasn't lost. And Sabbath-breaking, and other sinful habits related to the first four commandments. Right?

Anyway, you didn't answer my question. How many sinful habits do you think we have cultivated since birth? A rough number or range would be find. I'm very interested in knowing how you perceive this.

Tom, did you see my last post?

No, Denborg, I'm sorry, but I didn't see the post. We've gone on a bit since then. If you'd like to repost some questions or comments, I'd be happy to respond. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to go back and respond to your post. If I had seen it, I would have responded.

Again, this wasn't intentional, and I apologize.

JB: The problem with your position MM, is that it makes the word of the Lord "past tense"; rather than "present tense" which is the tense of "faith". By making the word of the Lord past tense, you make yourself the judge of what that word was. But to receive the "present tense" word of the Lord takes "faith", and can be received only by him who hears it.

MM: Due to the nature of time and space certain aspects of salvation are past tense. Jesus died on the cross 2,000 years ago. True, the benefits of His death are efficacious today, but He is not still dead on the cross at this time. I completed the process of conversion in 1995. True, I choose to renew it moment by moment, I choose to continue abiding in Jesus, but it does not mean I completed the process of conversion today.

JB: In receiving the "present tense word of the Lord" by faith, one belongs to the Lord, and who are you that judgest another man's servant.

MM: Have I judged someone?

JB: Is not the enlightenment of the holy spirit received by faith? What does the spirit bear witness with our spirit? "That we are the sons of God", right?

MM: Yes.

JB: Are those who live by faith left to their own devices? Are not they who are of the law left to their own devices?

MM: No, to the first; yes, to the second.

JB: What problem do you have with "faith"? Why is faith not meaningful to you? The scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with "sinful habits". They have to do with two different realms; two different sources.

MM: Faith is the victory. It comes by hearing and heeding the Word of God. I have faith. By faith I abide in Jesus; by faith He empowers me to be like Him. The Bible and SOP passages I posted have everything to do with crucifying sinful habits during the process of conversion. It is during this process, while we are converting from a life of sinning to a life without sinning, that God “exposes” (SC 29) to our sight, in light of the cross, our cultivated sinful habits that must be confessed and crucified in order to complete the process of conversion and experience the miracle of rebirth.

JB: Could you tell us what truth you discovered in 1995 and how it gave you victory over sin?

MM: I discovered the truth about the process of conversion and the miracle of rebirth. And it is the truth as it is in Jesus that empowers me to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit. By faith, it is the law and love of God that enables me to experience the promises of perfection.

I discovered that God does not wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain cultivated sinful habits. I discovered that conversion is not a lifelong process of becoming less and less sinful by becoming more and more sinless.

I discovered we begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. If we complete the process of conversion in God’s appointed way, we are born again without our sinful habits. Like Jesus we begin perfect (complete) and we become perfect (mature). We are born again dead to sin and awake to righteousness. Abiding by faith in Jesus empowers us to be like Jesus, to reveal the law and love of God in our thoughts, words, and deeds.

I discovered that not sinning is normal Christian behavior, that maturing in the fruits of the Spirit is normal. So long as we are abiding in Jesus, so long as we are partaking of the divine nature, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not, yea, cannot, commit a known sin. No, we do not lose the ability or freedom to sin. But in Christ we will not choose to sin.

We are, nevertheless, free to sin. However, we must first forget to keep our eyes on Jesus, we must neglect to consciously abide in Him, and then, thus separated, all we can do is sin. The gift of repentance, received into the heart, empowers us to confess and forsake our sin. The Holy Spirit then restores us to the mind of the new man and we resume abiding in Jesus, we resume maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. We thereby honor and glorify our heavenly Father.

TE: You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?

MM: Tom, Jesus raised up the Remnant Church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages. “Thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.” (Isa 58:12) Which church do you believe is the Remnant Church of prophecy? I believe it is the SDA church.

TE: You are the only person I'm aware of that holds to this idea of conversion. I'd suggest that in the future, rather than waiting for many posts, whenever you use the word "conversion" that you explain what you mean, because you have a unique definition for this word, and no one will know what you're talking about until you get to the point to where you've defined what you mean by "conversion." We're on page 9 of this topic, and only now is this coming out.

MM: You didn't answer my questions.

TV: So awaiting the day when he gets in touch with SDAs, he is still saved even though he is not fully converted? What does conversion mean?

MM: Yes, Ali is saved if he continues to live in harmony with the light he believes is true and right. “Conversion” and “converted” are different aspects of the same thing. “Converted” means a person has completed the “process of conversion”, namely, they have learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe.

TV: Seems Tom was right. We use the same word but mean different things by it.

MM: How do you define them?

TE: Regrading being fully reconciled, we are fully reconciled when we are justified by faith.

MM: Here is how Sister White describes it:

“Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins.” (OHC 52)

MM: Sinners are justified “when” (not before) they repent of their “sins”.

“God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul.” (FW 100)

MM: The heart must be surrendered “entirely” (not partially) before they are justified.

“Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained.” (1SM 397)

MM: “Every sin” (not some or most) must crucified to obtain justification.

TE: Conversion is not about sins. It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith.

MM: “Conversion is not about sins.” I disagree. It is during the “process of conversion” that sinners convert, by faith, from sinning to not sinning to maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: What you are calling the "process of conversion" would be better termed "the process of sanctification."

MM: I disagree. The process of sanctification begins the moment a person completes the process of conversion.

“This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250)

MM: Not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection, as you seem to be saying.

.............................


TE: And you too!! For example, you've mentioned smoking and pologamy as examples (in certain cases). I assume drinking must be an example as well, if Luther wasn't lost. And Sabbath-breaking, and other sinful habits related to the first four commandments. Right?

MM: I do not believe people complete the process of conversion, that is, converting from sinning to not sinning to maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, before they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. No conversion is complete until people are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Again, it is you who believes Jesus waits to reveal to people certain sinful habits until after they are converted and born again.

TE: Anyway, you didn't answer my question. How many sinful habits do you think we have cultivated since birth? A rough number or range would be find. I'm very interested in knowing how you perceive this.

MM: I’ve already answered this question. I don’t remember if it was on this thread or another one. I answered it by quoting the following passage:

4T 384, 385
Another book was opened, wherein were recorded the sins of those who profess the truth. Under the general heading of selfishness came every other sin. There were also headings over every column, and underneath these, opposite each name, were recorded, in their respective columns, the lesser sins. {4T 384.3}

Under covetousness came falsehood, theft, robbery, fraud, and avarice; under ambition came pride and extravagance; jealousy stood at the head of malice, envy, and hatred; and intemperance headed a long list of fearful crimes, such as lasciviousness, adultery, indulgence of animal passions, etc. {4T 385.1}