That's a great book.

Tom, am I to assume you are not going to address my posts? that the one quote you posted proves all the quotes I posted mean people are converted and born again before they crucify their sinful habits? that my take on it is incorrect?

I'll answer your posts (don't I always?).

Maybe I didn't see them, I don't know.

Anyway, do you agree that the DA quote is describing being "born again"?

TE: You're taking these quotes [on justification] out of context, in addition to taking them from different sources.

MM: I disagree they are out of context. And we are counseled to compare different statements on the same subject. They give us a balanced picture of the truth.

TE: The process of conversion is simple. A person is convinced of their need for Christ by the revelation of God's love through Christ crucified. The person repents, and gives his life to Christ. That's it.

MM: I agree that is it in a nutshell. However, we disagree as to what we must repent of before we complete the process of converting worldliness to godliness. You believe God waits to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is more convenient. In the meantime, they continue to practice them.

You also agree to this, in the case of smoking and polygamy. At least, you've said this in the past. But actually, the real difference is that you have a completely different idea as to what conversion consists of. I see it as the same thing as "being saved." If I'm understanding what you've written correctly, you would say that non-SDA's can be saved, but not converted, because to be converted one needs to follow all things that Jesus commanded, which are incorporated in the 28 fundamental beliefs, but to be saved, living up to the light one has is sufficient.

TE: The sins which God reveals are a means to an end, a way to bring a person into harmony with God. Our sins prevent us from accepting Christ, so the Holy Spirit reveals them to us, so that we can accept Christ and be reconciled. God doesn't reveal every sin, because that's neither necessary nor practical. The sins of which we have no sense of guilt do not prevent us from giving our hearts to Christ.

MM: We have zero “sense of guilt” for our sinful habits before we embark upon the process of conversion, before God begins exposing them to our sight in light of the cross.

There is not time in or lives where we have "zero sense of guilt." So if you define our embarking upon the process of conversion as being born, then I agree with your statement.

We may realize they are morally wrong, but not in the sense it drives us to Jesus for salvation.
The SOP says we become aware of “every” sinful habit before we are converted.

You're misreading her intent. The "every" applies to things we are aware of as being wrong, of course. It doesn't incorporate things we don't know are wrong. For example, a non-SDA would not be aware of breaking the Sabbath, but SC 29 is speaking to their conversion just as much as to the conversion of an SDA. There's absolutely nothing in SC which applies only to SDA's. She gives no indication that conversion means anything different than being saved.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

TE: I see conversion as having to do with Jesus Christ, and you see it as having to do with sins. I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

MM: You grossly misrepresent what I believe. Brother Den has labored to point this out. Please reconsider his counsel. Thank you.

Here's what you wrote:



How does what I wrote "grossly misrepresent" what you believe. If I say, "Conversion is not about sin? It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith." and you respond "I disagree," how am I misrepresenting your view????

TE: When one is justified by faith (saved), the process of sanctification has begun. We are sanctified by faith. This is a process which continues throughout the believer's lifetime. We are saved by faith, and sanctified by faith. Or, to put it another way, "the just shall live by faith." Our salvation is from "faith to faith." …

MM: I totally agree.

Do you see "justified by faith" as meaning the same things as "saved," but not the same thing as "converted" or "born again"?

TE: … There's no "waiting" until some process is completed, other than the process of giving one's heart to Christ. This is all that's necessary. This is repeated throughout Scripture. For example, the publican was justified when he prayed, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner." Jesus tells us he stands at the door and knocks. If we hear His voice and respond, He enters and fellowships with us.

MM: I agree. But we disagree as to the condition of our heart when we surrender all to Jesus.

I don't think we disagree on this point.

Jesus first impresses us to confess and then empowers us to crucify our sinful habits, in light of the cross, before He starts dwelling within us. He will not occupy a divided throne.

We disagree here. I see that what Waggoner wrote about this is correct.



I agree with the SOP statements. What I disagree with is your idea that every sinful habit cultivated from birth is revealed. As Waggoner points out, to do this "He would have to lengthen my probation longer than I believe He possibly can, for me to repeat the smallest part of them."

Instead, God "shows us the representative sins of our lives." God's purpose is to lead us to repentance, not to overwhelm us.

Here's an example from real life. Let's says you and I are good friends, and something happens where you become offended at me, and start treating me poorly, but I do not reciprocate. I treat you well, and you know I am treating you well. Let's say your anger against me is due to some misunderstanding you've had, some idea about me which is not true. Later on you discover the thing you thought was true isn't, and you realize you've done wrong by me. So you seek for me to forgive you. I see that you're distraught, and start to forgive you, but you say, "Wait, I haven't confessed all my sins." I say, "There's no need to do that. I can see your sorry. That's good enough."

Now do you think I would insist that you confess every single bad things you've done before peace could be established between us? How petty would that make me to do such a thing?

As Waggoner points out, the story of the prodigal son demonstrates that God is not this way. The father stopped the son as the son was trying to get out his rehearsed speech. What do you think this story is trying to convey? It's teaching us that God is quick to forgive, and He doesn't have a list of sins we have to confess before we can be made right with him. As 1 Cor. 13 tells us, "Love does not keep track of wrongs".

God is quick to forgive. The sacrifices of a contrite heart, He will not despise.

MM: You didn't answer my question. It doesn’t concern conversion.

1. Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?


TE: The above describes the process of being born again, doesn't it?

MM: Yes, I believe it does. Here is what it says:

1. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself.

MM: At this point in the process people are not converted or born again yet. Do you agree?

2. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.

MM: They repent of, in light of the cross, their sins (we do not agree on which sinful habits God waits to reveal until after they are born again), but they’re still not yet converted or born again. Do you agree?

3. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

MM: The word “then” indicates a before and after sequence. I believe it pinpoints the precise moment they experience the miracle of conversion and rebirth. Do you agree?

4. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.

MM: The phrase "are brought into obedience” is present tense. It is saying the "thoughts and desires" are brought into obedience to the will of God the moment they are born again. It does not mean they are gradually brought into obedience over a long period of time. I’m fairly sure you do not agree with this insight. Am I right?

5. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.

MM: While abiding in Jesus they are empowered to subdue, that is, kept from resurfacing, “all” (not some) of their former sinful habits the moment they are converted and reborn. Again, I doubt you agree. Am I right?

6. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God."

MM: The word “then” in this sentence reiterates the before and after sequence pinpointed in the above mentioned sentence. It describes them delighting in doing the will of God (present tense) as outlined in the law. It does not portray them looking forward to the day (future tense) when they will be able to do it. I’m sure you disagree. Am I right?

TE: You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?

MM: Tom, Jesus raised up the Remnant Church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages. “Thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.” (Isa 58:12) Which church do you believe is the Remnant Church of prophecy? I believe it is the SDA church.

TE: You are the only person I'm aware of that holds to this idea of conversion.

MM: You didn't answer my question. It doesn’t concern conversion.

You didn't answer my question. It does concern conversion.

A lot of your questions look to me to be rhetorical. Like which church do I believe is the Remnant Church. Isn't that in our 28 fundamental beliefs? You know I believe these (if you've paid attention), so your question is rhetorical, isn't it?

At any rate, please answer my question.


1. Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?

This isn't how I would phrase it. Here's how I would phrase it:



Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175, 176)

TE: The above describes the process of being born again, doesn't it?

MM: Yes, I believe it does.

Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

Here is what it says:

1. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself.

MM: At this point in the process people are not converted or born again yet. Do you agree?

2. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.

MM: They repent of, in light of the cross, their sins (we do not agree on which sinful habits God waits to reveal until after they are born again), but they’re still not yet converted or born again. Do you agree?

3. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

MM: The word “then” indicates a before and after sequence. I believe it pinpoints the precise moment they experience the miracle of conversion and rebirth. Do you agree?

4. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.

MM: The phrase "are brought into obedience” is present tense. It is saying the "thoughts and desires" are brought into obedience to the will of God the moment they are born again. It does not mean they are gradually brought into obedience over a long period of time. I’m fairly sure you do not agree with this insight. Am I right?

5. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.

MM: While abiding in Jesus they are empowered to subdue, that is, kept from resurfacing, “all” (not some) of their former sinful habits the moment they are converted and reborn. Again, I doubt you agree. Am I right?

6. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God."

MM: The word “then” in this sentence reiterates the before and after sequence pinpointed in the above mentioned sentence. It describes them delighting in doing the will of God (present tense) as outlined in the law. It does not portray them looking forward to the day (future tense) when they will be able to do it. I’m sure you disagree. Am I right?

I understand that the sinner responds to the love of God revealed at the cross by repenting (ceasing to fight against God; which is repentance of sins is about. That is, repentance is necessary because it implies a change of direction. If we are fighting against God, we can't be at peace with Him.) and is reconciled to God. This reconciliation is more than the mere forgiveness of sins, but involves a new creation. The heart and mind is brought into harmony with God. What brings about this change is faith in God; faith in His promises, faith in His character, faith in Christ.

I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

TE: If I'm understanding what you've written correctly, you would say that non-SDA's can be saved, but not converted, because to be converted one needs to follow all things that Jesus commanded, which are incorporated in the 28 fundamental beliefs, but to be saved, living up to the light one has is sufficient.

MM: People who are in the process of converting from darkness to light complete the process when they are no longer in darkness. Even if they have completed 99% of the process they still haven’t completed the process. Do you see how this applies?

TE: There is not time in or lives where we have "zero sense of guilt."

MM: I believe people who have completed the process of conversion, people who are abiding in Jesus, people who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, people who are partaking of the divine nature, people who are obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded – I believe these people are blessed with zero guilt.


TE: You're misreading her intent. The "every" applies to things we are aware of as being wrong, of course. It doesn't incorporate things we don't know are wrong.

MM: I disagree. I believe she is referring to people who are being led step by step to Christ in God’s appointed way, that is, learning how to observe everything Jesus commanded. The SC 29 quote is very clear. There is no indication it implies certain sinful habits are overlooked.

TE: For example, a non-SDA would not be aware of breaking the Sabbath, but SC 29 is speaking to their conversion just as much as to the conversion of an SDA. There's absolutely nothing in SC which applies only to SDA's. She gives no indication that conversion means anything different than being saved.

MM: I disagree.

………………………………….

TE: How does what I wrote "grossly misrepresent" what you believe. If I say, "Conversion is not about sin? It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith." and you respond "I disagree," how am I misrepresenting your view????

MM: Because you know I believe the process of conversion is all about leading us from a life of crucifying Jesus to a life of exalting Him, to a life of fellowshipping with Him.

TE: Do you see "justified by faith" as meaning the same things as "saved," but not the same thing as "converted" or "born again"?

MM: It is God who must justify (to the on-looking universe) rewarding sinners with eternal life. He does this by demonstrating they are safe to save. Whether or not they complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they die does not necessarily mean they are not safe to save. No one will be in heaven who should not be there. God is doing everything He can to motivate everyone to demonstrate they are safe to save.

TE: Instead, God "shows us the representative sins of our lives." God's purpose is to lead us to repentance, not to overwhelm us.

MM: I agree. But it doesn’t stop us from feeling “stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God.” (SC 29)

TE: Now do you think I would insist that you confess every single bad things you've done before peace could be established between us? How petty would that make me to do such a thing?

MM: Expressing a “representative” apology would be ideal.

TE: It's teaching us that God is quick to forgive, and He doesn't have a list of sins we have to confess before we can be made right with him. As 1 Cor. 13 tells us, "Love does not keep track of wrongs".

MM: I disagree. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Here is how the SOP puts it:



TE: God is quick to forgive. The sacrifices of a contrite heart, He will not despise.

MM: Amen!

TE: A lot of your questions look to me to be rhetorical. Like which church do I believe is the Remnant Church. Isn't that in our 28 fundamental beliefs? You know I believe these (if you've paid attention), so your question is rhetorical, isn't it?

MM: Thank you for making it clear you believe the SDA church is the Remnant Church of prophecy.

TE: At any rate, please answer my question – “You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?”

MM: . . . in order to complete the process of converting from darkness to light as prescribed by Jesus, namely, to obey everything He commanded, which is the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

TE: “Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?” This isn't how I would phrase it. Here's how I would phrase it (COL 415, 416):

MM: Does your quote and my question contradict each other? In other words, does your quote disagree with the idea that Jesus commissioned the Remnant Church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything he commanded?

TE: Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

MM: Because we are “saved” during the process of converting from darkness to light (if we do not refuse to confess certain sinful habits).

TE: I understand that the sinner responds to the love of God revealed at the cross by repenting . . . and is reconciled to God. This reconciliation is more than the mere forgiveness of sins, but involves a new creation. The heart and mind is brought into harmony with God. What brings about this change is faith in God; faith in His promises, faith in His character, faith in Christ.

MM: I agree. But you also believe it involves God waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. The quote you posted disallows this view. I carefully pointed this out in the section you skipped over.

TE: I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

MM: The quote you are referring to does not include understanding what God has revealed to us in the Bible or the SOP about the plan of salvation.

TE: If I'm understanding what you've written correctly, you would say that non-SDA's can be saved, but not converted, because to be converted one needs to follow all things that Jesus commanded, which are incorporated in the 28 fundamental beliefs, but to be saved, living up to the light one has is sufficient.

MM: People who are in the process of converting from darkness to light complete the process when they are no longer in darkness. Even if they have completed 99% of the process they still haven’t completed the process. Do you see how this applies?

I understand what you are saying, but completely disagree, because I see the fundamental issue completely differently than you do. I see the issue as involving our hearts, which are at enmity to God. Our cold, hard, bitter heart needs to be reconciled to God, who is love. This is accomplished by a revelation of His character, through Jesus Christ. Especially the cross provides the healing remedy that we need.

TE: There is not time in or lives where we have "zero sense of guilt."

MM: I believe people who have completed the process of conversion, people who are abiding in Jesus, people who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, people who are partaking of the divine nature, people who are obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded – I believe these people are blessed with zero guilt.

This sounds like opening one up to a dangerous self-deception, like the Holy Flesh movement. Once you think you've arrived, it's difficult to be convinced differently. The mind is exceptionally able at twisting things around to one's own perspective.

Quote:
SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

TE: You're misreading her intent. The "every" applies to things we are aware of as being wrong, of course. It doesn't incorporate things we don't know are wrong.

MM: I disagree. I believe she is referring to people who are being led step by step to Christ in God’s appointed way, that is, learning how to observe everything Jesus commanded. The SC 29 quote is very clear. There is no indication it implies certain sinful habits are overlooked.

Not only does SC 29 not discuss what you are suggesting, but none of it does. The idea that one needs to confess every sinful habit in order to be converted simply doesn't exist anywhere in inspiration. There's absolutely no reference to "every sinful habit cultivated since birth" either here or anywhere else.

TE: For example, a non-SDA would not be aware of breaking the Sabbath, but SC 29 is speaking to their conversion just as much as to the conversion of an SDA. There's absolutely nothing in SC which applies only to SDA's. She gives no indication that conversion means anything different than being saved.

MM: I disagree.

With what? With the statement the SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Is this what you think? Or are you disagreeing with something else?

………………………………….

TE: How does what I wrote "grossly misrepresent" what you believe. If I say, "Conversion is not about sin? It's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is established by faith." and you respond "I disagree," how am I misrepresenting your view????

MM: Because you know I believe the process of conversion is all about leading us from a life of crucifying Jesus to a life of exalting Him, to a life of fellowshipping with Him.

MM, I made the statement that conversion was not about sins, but about faith in Christ. You disagreed with that statement. Here it is again:



You can't fairly accuse me of grossly misrepresenting your view when I'm just repeating back what you said. If you wish to retract, or modify this, please go ahead. But otherwise, if I continue to say that you believe that conversion is not about a relationship with Jesus Christ, but about sin, there's no way you can suggest I'm misrepresenting your view, OK? I mean, just look above!

TE: Do you see "justified by faith" as meaning the same things as "saved," but not the same thing as "converted" or "born again"?

MM: It is God who must justify (to the on-looking universe) rewarding sinners with eternal life. He does this by demonstrating they are safe to save. Whether or not they complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they die does not necessarily mean they are not safe to save. No one will be in heaven who should not be there. God is doing everything He can to motivate everyone to demonstrate they are safe to save.

What's the answer please. To your way of thinking, does "justification by faith" mean the same thing as "saved" or the same thing as "born again"? (or something else).

TE: Instead, God "shows us the representative sins of our lives." God's purpose is to lead us to repentance, not to overwhelm us.

MM: I agree. But it doesn’t stop us from feeling “stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God.” (SC 29)

No one has suggested otherwise.

TE: Now do you think I would insist that you confess every single bad things you've done before peace could be established between us? How petty would that make me to do such a thing?

MM: Expressing a “representative” apology would be ideal.

You mean like, "I'm sorry I misunderstood you in think that you were (or had done) blah, blah, blah. Please forgive me"?

TE: It's teaching us that God is quick to forgive, and He doesn't have a list of sins we have to confess before we can be made right with him. As 1 Cor. 13 tells us, "Love does not keep track of wrongs".

MM: I disagree.

Here it is:



"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Here is how the SOP puts it:

Quote:
True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}


TE: God is quick to forgive. The sacrifices of a contrite heart, He will not despise.

MM: Amen!

TE: A lot of your questions look to me to be rhetorical. Like which church do I believe is the Remnant Church. Isn't that in our 28 fundamental beliefs? You know I believe these (if you've paid attention), so your question is rhetorical, isn't it?

MM: Thank you for making it clear you believe the SDA church is the Remnant Church of prophecy.

It surprises me that you would be confused about such a thing.

TE: At any rate, please answer my question – “You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?”

MM: . . . in order to complete the process of converting from darkness to light as prescribed by Jesus, namely, to obey everything He commanded, which is the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

So this is "yes," right?

TE: “Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?” This isn't how I would phrase it. Here's how I would phrase it (COL 415, 416):

MM: Does your quote and my question contradict each other? In other words, does your quote disagree with the idea that Jesus commissioned the Remnant Church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything he commanded?

Your whole way of looking at things is different than mine. I'm answering you in terms of how I look at things. It's not that there's a contradiction, but that you're not emphasizing, IMO, the right thing, which the quote I provided does. The big question relates to God's character. That's the message to be given to the world. The "all things" Christ commanded relate specifically to this truth. Apart from this truth, the questions you are asking are, to my mind, incomplete and misleading.

TE: Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

MM: Because we are “saved” during the process of converting from darkness to light (if we do not refuse to confess certain sinful habits).

The quote simply asks the question, "How are we to be saved." It's clearly her intent to answer that question by the rest of her answer. Given that she describes being born again, it's as clear as sunlight that being saved is synonomous with being born again.

TE: I understand that the sinner responds to the love of God revealed at the cross by repenting . . . and is reconciled to God. This reconciliation is more than the mere forgiveness of sins, but involves a new creation. The heart and mind is brought into harmony with God. What brings about this change is faith in God; faith in His promises, faith in His character, faith in Christ.

MM: I agree. But you also believe it involves God waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right.

I've never said this. You keep wanting to put my way of thinking of things according to how you think of things. But I don't think of things that way! I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.

The quote you posted disallows this view. I carefully pointed this out in the section you skipped over.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

TE: I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

MM: The quote you are referring to does not include understanding what God has revealed to us in the Bible or the SOP about the plan of salvation.

I think it does, if by "understanding" you mean "pick apart with a fine-toothed comb." The process of our perceving our need for Christ and reaching out to Him, or, perhaps more accurately, responding to His love is interwoven. You can't say with such great distinction, I don't believe, at this point the person still isn't converted. Now, poof!, he is.

If you can find the quote, please post it.