TE: I understand what you are saying, but completely disagree, because I see the fundamental issue completely differently than you do. I see the issue as involving our hearts, which are at enmity to God. Our cold, hard, bitter heart needs to be reconciled to God, who is love. This is accomplished by a revelation of His character, through Jesus Christ. Especially the cross provides the healing remedy that we need.

MM: I also see it as a matter of the heart. But do you see it as a matter of the mind, too, like I do? “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.” God wants us to be intelligent Christians, too, right? He cannot restore us if we are ignorant of the truth. The work of conversion is not complete until we are ready for translation.

1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?


TE: This [living with zero guilt] sounds like opening one up to a dangerous self-deception, like the Holy Flesh movement. Once you think you've arrived, it's difficult to be convinced differently. The mind is exceptionally able at twisting things around to one's own perspective.

MM: I agree people must be careful not to excuse sinning with a false sense of security and freedom, but I disagree they must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty. The truth sets us free. We are free indeed if we are abiding in Jesus. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” “Ye may know that ye have eternal life.”

TE: Not only does SC 29 not discuss what you are suggesting, but none of it does. The idea that one needs to confess every sinful habit in order to be converted simply doesn't exist anywhere in inspiration. There's absolutely no reference to "every sinful habit cultivated since birth" either here or anywhere else.

MM: I disagree. I believe the word “every” in SC 29 means “every”, not some. She is very clear about it. “The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man.” (SD 300) Not gradually crucified after we are born again, as you seem to believe. God does not keep people in the dark, as you seem to believe, regarding their sinful habits.

TE: “I disagree” With what? With the statement the SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Is this what you think? Or are you disagreeing with something else?

MM: Again, I believe SC 29 refers to people who are experiencing the initial steps of conversion in God’s appointed way. See Matthew 28:19, 20.

TE: MM, I made the statement that conversion was not about sins, but about faith in Christ. You disagreed with that statement. . . . You can't fairly accuse me of grossly misrepresenting your view when I'm just repeating back what you said.

MM: The part I disagreed with was “Conversion is not about sins.” I agree it takes saving faith to complete the process of converting from darkness to light. You know very well that I believe this way, and yet your words make it seem as if all I care about is being set free from sin, that having a relationship with Jesus is secondary or unimportant. In this way you grossly misrepresent what I believe.

TE: To your way of thinking, does "justification by faith" mean the same thing as "saved" or the same thing as "born again"? (or something else).

MM: It means God covers us with Jesus’ robe of righteousness and then looks upon us as if we have never sinned. He will not impute the righteousness of Jesus to cover people who are practicing known sins. It applies only to those people who are living up the light they believe is right and true. It does not matter if they complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they die. Thus, the answer to your questions is “something else”.

TE: “Expressing a “representative” apology would be ideal.” You mean like, "I'm sorry I misunderstood you in think that you were (or had done) blah, blah, blah. Please forgive me"?

MM: Something like that.


TE: Here it is: “It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.” (1 Cor. 13:5)

MM: It is also written, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Sister White agrees:

SC 38
True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}

So, yes, God does have a record or knowledge of our sinful habits He wants to save us from, so that He can empower us to live in harmony with His will and way, so we can be like Jesus. How can God make “us right with Him” without setting us free from the sinful habits that make us unlike Jesus?

TE: So this is "yes," right?

MM: Not “yes” to your statement, but to the second one. To “be converted” a person must complete the process of converting from darkness to light. 99% is 1% short of being “converted”.


TE: Your whole way of looking at things is different than mine. I'm answering you in terms of how I look at things. It's not that there's a contradiction, but that you're not emphasizing, IMO, the right thing, which the quote I provided does. The big question relates to God's character. That's the message to be given to the world. The "all things" Christ commanded relate specifically to this truth. Apart from this truth, the questions you are asking are, to my mind, incomplete and misleading.

MM: Are you assuming teaching people how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded, in accordance with Jesus’ commission, means divorcing having a faith-based relationship with God, an appreciation of His character and kingdom?


TE: The quote simply asks the question, "How are we to be saved." It's clearly her intent to answer that question by the rest of her answer. Given that she describes being born again, it's as clear as sunlight that being saved is synonomous with being born again.

MM: I agree. But people can be “saved” during the process of converting, before they are born again.


TE: I've never said this. You keep wanting to put my way of thinking of things according to how you think of things. But I don't think of things that way! I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.

MM: Do you agree with me, then, that God reveals to people, in light of the cross, all of their sinful habits during the process of conversion, before they are born again? Or, do you believe God waits to reveal to them certain sinful habits until the time is right?


TE: I don't know what you're talking about here.

MM: Here is the part you skipped over without comment:


TE: I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

MM: The quote you are referring to does not include understanding what God has revealed to us in the Bible or the SOP about the plan of salvation.

TE: I think it does, if by "understanding" you mean "pick apart with a fine-toothed comb." The process of our perceving our need for Christ and reaching out to Him, or, perhaps more accurately, responding to His love is interwoven. You can't say with such great distinction, I don't believe, at this point the person still isn't converted. Now, poof!, he is. If you can find the quote, please post it.

MM: “By their fruits ye shall know them.” We do not have to “judge” people to “discern” they are not obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. It is true, though, that just because people appear to be in harmony with the law of God does not necessarily mean they are. It is not for us to judge motive.

However, the Bible and the SOP clearly define and describe the steps to Christ. We can know and experience these steps perfectly, unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Ignorance is not bliss; it cannot set us free from our sinful habits, it cannot make us like Jesus.

Doesnt this question lose some of its 'adventist' edge if instead of 3AM, you where to write:
1,fear the Judge, worship the Creator, GOD
2,counterfit religion is fallen
3,anyone who worships the beast will burn

TE: I understand what you are saying, but completely disagree, because I see the fundamental issue completely differently than you do. I see the issue as involving our hearts, which are at enmity to God. Our cold, hard, bitter heart needs to be reconciled to God, who is love. This is accomplished by a revelation of His character, through Jesus Christ. Especially the cross provides the healing remedy that we need.

MM: I also see it as a matter of the heart. But do you see it as a matter of the mind, too, like I do? “For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.” God wants us to be intelligent Christians, too, right? He cannot restore us if we are ignorant of the truth. The work of conversion is not complete until we are ready for translation.

1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

I understand the 3AMs as having to do with the Gospel, and in particular, God's character, as the COL quote I provided points out. But, with this caveat of a likely difference in emphasis, I agree your view (i.e. answer to your questions is "no" to both.)

Quote:
There is to be a people fitted up for translation to heaven, whom Enoch represents. They are looking and waiting for the coming of the Lord. The work will go on with all those who will cooperate with Jesus in the work of redemption. He gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. God has made every provision that they should be intelligent Christians, filled with a knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding. {TSB 86.3}

A theoretical knowledge of the truth is essential, but the knowledge of the greatest truth will not save us; our knowledge must be practical. God's people must not only know His will, but they must practice it. Many will be purged out from the numbers of those who know the truth, because they are not sanctified by it. The truth must be brought into their hearts, sanctifying and cleansing them from all earthliness and sensuality in the most private life. The soul temple must be cleansed. Every secret act is as if we were in the presence of God and holy angels, as all things are open before God, and from Him nothing can be hid. {TSB 86.4}

TE: This [living with zero guilt] sounds like opening one up to a dangerous self-deception, like the Holy Flesh movement. Once you think you've arrived, it's difficult to be convinced differently. The mind is exceptionally able at twisting things around to one's own perspective.

MM: I agree people must be careful not to excuse sinning with a false sense of security and freedom, but I disagree they must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty.

I'm constantly amazed at your ability to come to conclusions like this. I don't understand how you read things. It's really odd. "must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty"? What an idea! I doubt anyone in all history has suggested such a thing. I certainly haven't.

The truth sets us free. We are free indeed if we are abiding in Jesus. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” “Ye may know that ye have eternal life.”

TE: Not only does SC 29 not discuss what you are suggesting, but none of it does. The idea that one needs to confess every sinful habit in order to be converted simply doesn't exist anywhere in inspiration. There's absolutely no reference to "every sinful habit cultivated since birth" either here or anywhere else.

MM: I disagree. I believe the word “every” in SC 29 means “every”, not some.

This sounds like the argument with Calvinists involving the meaning of the word "all." That is, it says "all the world would be taxed," but it's only a small portion of the world that was taxed. The word "every," like any word, needs to be taken in context. You must have some totally different idea about what she's talking about. I'm sure 99 out of a hundred people, more likely closer to 100 out of 100 on the average, would understand she's talking about the experience of a person being saved, not the experience of preparing for translation, which seems to be what you are talking about. It's true every sin must be brought to mind in order to be translated, but not to be born again. To enter heaven, whether by death or translation, one must be born again. She's not talking about an experience, in SC 29, that a non-SDA cannot have.

She is very clear about it. “The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man.” (SD 300) Not gradually crucified after we are born again, as you seem to believe. God does not keep people in the dark, as you seem to believe, regarding their sinful habits.

God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!

TE: “I disagree” With what? With the statement the SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Is this what you think? Or are you disagreeing with something else?

MM: Again, I believe SC 29 refers to people who are experiencing the initial steps of conversion in God’s appointed way. See Matthew 28:19, 20.

This isn't what I said. You previously disagreed with something I said. I asked for clarification about what it was that I said that you disagreed with. I asked you specific questions above regarding that. What specifically about I wrote did you disagree with? Is it with the statement that SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Or something else?

TE: MM, I made the statement that conversion was not about sins, but about faith in Christ. You disagreed with that statement. . . . You can't fairly accuse me of grossly misrepresenting your view when I'm just repeating back what you said.

MM: The part I disagreed with was “Conversion is not about sins.” I agree it takes saving faith to complete the process of converting from darkness to light. You know very well that I believe this way, and yet your words make it seem as if all I care about is being set free from sin, that having a relationship with Jesus is secondary or unimportant. In this way you grossly misrepresent what I believe.

If I write a statment, and you respond "I disagree," I'm going to assume you're disagreeing with my statement. If what you really mean is that you disagree with a portion of it, don't start your response with "I disagree" and we can avoid these misunderstanding.

TE: To your way of thinking, does "justification by faith" mean the same thing as "saved" or the same thing as "born again"? (or something else).

MM: It means God covers us with Jesus’ robe of righteousness and then looks upon us as if we have never sinned. He will not impute the righteousness of Jesus to cover people who are practicing known sins. It applies only to those people who are living up the light they believe is right and true. It does not matter if they complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they die. Thus, the answer to your questions is “something else”.

Thank you. So "justification by faith," "saved," and "converted" are three different things. "Converted" is the same as "born again." I have this right, don't I? (you don't need to redescribe each of the terms, unless I'm wrong)

TE: “Expressing a “representative” apology would be ideal.” You mean like, "I'm sorry I misunderstood you in think that you were (or had done) blah, blah, blah. Please forgive me"?

MM: Something like that.

So you agree it would be petty of me to make you confess every wrong thing you've thought about me, or said in private conversations, etc. during the period you were mad at me? Isn't my seeing that you are truly contrite enough? Isn't this the message of the Prodigal Son? Before the son could rehearse his speech, the father had already forgiven him. In fact, before he evenn saw his son, he had already forgiven him.

Quote:
TE: It's teaching us that God is quick to forgive, and He doesn't have a list of sins we have to confess before we can be made right with him. As 1 Cor. 13 tells us, "Love does not keep track of wrongs".

MM: I disagree.

TE: Here it is: “It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.” (1 Cor. 13:5)

MM: It is also written, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Sister White agrees:

SC 38
True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}

So, yes, God does have a record or knowledge of our sinful habits He wants to save us from, so that He can empower us to live in harmony with His will and way, so we can be like Jesus. How can God make “us right with Him” without setting us free from the sinful habits that make us unlike Jesus?

I'm not sure what you're saying. 1 Cor. 13:5 clearly says that love (agape, and recall from John that God is agape) keeps no record of wrongs. You can't dispute that, because that's what it says. When you write, "it is also written ..." are you trying to make the point that 1 Cor. 13:5 is incorrect? I can't see where what you wrote addressed 1 Cor. 13:5 in any way. It must mean something.

TE: At any rate, please answer my question – “You have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted?”

MM: . . . in order to complete the process of converting from darkness to light as prescribed by Jesus, namely, to obey everything He commanded, which is the mission and message of the Remnant Church.

TE: So this is "yes," right?

MM: Not “yes” to your statement, but to the second one. To “be converted” a person must complete the process of converting from darkness to light. 99% is 1% short of being “converted”.

I still don't know the answer to my question. You believe you have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted, correct?

Quote:
TE: “Do you agree God raised up the SDA church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded?” This isn't how I would phrase it. Here's how I would phrase it (COL 415, 416):

MM: Does your quote and my question contradict each other? In other words, does your quote disagree with the idea that Jesus commissioned the Remnant Church to teach everyone everywhere how to obey and observe everything he commanded?

TE: Your whole way of looking at things is different than mine. I'm answering you in terms of how I look at things. It's not that there's a contradiction, but that you're not emphasizing, IMO, the right thing, which the quote I provided does. The big question relates to God's character. That's the message to be given to the world. The "all things" Christ commanded relate specifically to this truth. Apart from this truth, the questions you are asking are, to my mind, incomplete and misleading.

MM: Are you assuming teaching people how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded, in accordance with Jesus’ commission, means divorcing having a faith-based relationship with God, an appreciation of His character and kingdom?

It could. It depends upon how it's done. If it's done with an emphasis on the revealing and confessing of sinful habits, as opposed to faith in Christ, and an understanding of the real issues of the Great Controversy, then I can see a problem. Of course, this wouldn't be "in accordance with Jesus' commission," so it would be more accurate for me to say that a person *thinking* they were teaching people how to obey and observer everything Jesus commanded could in actuality being acting in a way which would serve to break down a faith-based relationship with God, rather than build it up, if that person's emphasis was wrong.

Quote:
TE: Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

MM: Because we are “saved” during the process of converting from darkness to light (if we do not refuse to confess certain sinful habits).

TE: The quote simply asks the question, "How are we to be saved." It's clearly her intent to answer that question by the rest of her answer. Given that she describes being born again, it's as clear as sunlight that being saved is synonomous with being born again.

MM: I agree. But people can be “saved” during the process of converting, before they are born again.

The question starts out, "How, then, is one saved?" She then explains how one is saved. To interpret what she writes as answering the question "How, then, is one born again" instead, where only a portion of her answer is addressing that question of being saved would be to do violence to her intent, which is clearly to answer the question of what one must do to be saved. Therefore being saved and being born again, to EGW's mind (at least in the context of this quote) are the same thing.

Quote:
TE: I understand that the sinner responds to the love of God revealed at the cross by repenting . . . and is reconciled to God. This reconciliation is more than the mere forgiveness of sins, but involves a new creation. The heart and mind is brought into harmony with God. What brings about this change is faith in God; faith in His promises, faith in His character, faith in Christ.

MM: I agree. But you also believe it involves God waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right.

TE: I've never said this. You keep wanting to put my way of thinking of things according to how you think of things. But I don't think of things that way! I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.

MM: Do you agree with me, then, that God reveals to people, in light of the cross, all of their sinful habits during the process of conversion, before they are born again? Or, do you believe God waits to reveal to them certain sinful habits until the time is right?

You don't even believe God reveals "all of their sinful habits" because you except, at times anyway, smoking and polygamy, and I assume also drinking (if Luther was saved).

Quote:
MM: The quote you posted disallows this view. I carefully pointed this out in the section you skipped over.

TE: I don't know what you're talking about here.

MM: Here is the part you skipped over without comment:

Quote:
DA 175, 176
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175, 176)

TE: The above describes the process of being born again, doesn't it?

MM: Yes, I believe it does.

TE: Then how can you distinguish between being saved and being born again, since the description starts out with the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

Here is what it says:

1. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself.

MM: At this point in the process people are not converted or born again yet. Do you agree?

2. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.

MM: They repent of, in light of the cross, their sins (we do not agree on which sinful habits God waits to reveal until after they are born again), but they’re still not yet converted or born again. Do you agree?

3. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

MM: The word “then” indicates a before and after sequence. I believe it pinpoints the precise moment they experience the miracle of conversion and rebirth. Do you agree?

4. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.

MM: The phrase "are brought into obedience” is present tense. It is saying the "thoughts and desires" are brought into obedience to the will of God the moment they are born again. It does not mean they are gradually brought into obedience over a long period of time. I’m fairly sure you do not agree with this insight. Am I right?

5. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.

MM: While abiding in Jesus they are empowered to subdue, that is, kept from resurfacing, “all” (not some) of their former sinful habits the moment they are converted and reborn. Again, I doubt you agree. Am I right?

6. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God."

MM: The word “then” in this sentence reiterates the before and after sequence pinpointed in the above mentioned sentence. It describes them delighting in doing the will of God (present tense) as outlined in the law. It does not portray them looking forward to the day (future tense) when they will be able to do it. I’m sure you disagree. Am I right?

TE: I'm not comfortable trying to nit-pick too finely each step along the way(I assume you're aware that we have counsel not to do this.), which is why I'm not responding to the points individually.

MM: The quote you are referring to does not include understanding what God has revealed to us in the Bible or the SOP about the plan of salvation.

TE: I think it does, if by "understanding" you mean "pick apart with a fine-toothed comb." The process of our perceving our need for Christ and reaching out to Him, or, perhaps more accurately, responding to His love is interwoven. You can't say with such great distinction, I don't believe, at this point the person still isn't converted. Now, poof!, he is. If you can find the quote, please post it.

MM: “By their fruits ye shall know them.” We do not have to “judge” people to “discern” they are not obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. It is true, though, that just because people appear to be in harmony with the law of God does not necessarily mean they are. It is not for us to judge motive.

However, the Bible and the SOP clearly define and describe the steps to Christ. We can know and experience these steps perfectly, unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Ignorance is not bliss; it cannot set us free from our sinful habits, it cannot make us like Jesus.

I don't know if you're asking something in this last part, or looking for a comment, or what. I can say briefly that I see things according to how Waggoner described things, which I see as the same as Ellen White described things. Victory over sin comes as a result of living by faith. "The just shall live by faith." We overcome sin in the same way we are justified -- by faith.

1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

TV: Doesnt this question lose some of its 'adventist' edge if instead of 3AM, you where to write:
1,fear the Judge, worship the Creator, GOD
2,counterfit religion is fallen
3,anyone who worships the beast will burn

MM: Thomas, doesn't your question assume churches, other than the SDA church, is teaching the truth about Revelation 14:6-12? Do you know of any such churches?

Well percieved for you Mike. I wouldnt be suprised to find out, if this particular truth was preached about the same frequency in non-SDA churches as it is in SDA churches.

1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

TE: I understand the 3AMs as having to do with the Gospel, and in particular, God's character, as the COL quote I provided points out. But, with this caveat of a likely difference in emphasis, I agree your view (i.e. answer to your questions is "no" to both.)

MM: I also believe the 3AMs have to do with the gospel and the character of God. It is difficult, though, to overlook the emphasis prophecy places on the Sabbath-Sunday crisis. It is also difficult to overlook the condemnation of non-SDA churches and the desperate call to come out of them.


TE: I'm constantly amazed at your ability to come to conclusions like this. I don't understand how you read things. It's really odd. "must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty"? What an idea! I doubt anyone in all history has suggested such a thing. I certainly haven't.

MM: Okay, what, then, did you mean when you wrote – “There is not time in or lives where we have ‘zero sense of guilt.’” I assumed you meant, There is no time in our lives where we have a zero sense of guilt. How are you using the phrse “zero sense of guilt”?



TE: This sounds like the argument with Calvinists involving the meaning of the word "all." That is, it says "all the world would be taxed," but it's only a small portion of the world that was taxed. The word "every," like any word, needs to be taken in context. You must have some totally different idea about what she's talking about. I'm sure 99 out of a hundred people, more likely closer to 100 out of 100 on the average, would understand she's talking about the experience of a person being saved, not the experience of preparing for translation, which seems to be what you are talking about. It's true every sin must be brought to mind in order to be translated, but not to be born again. To enter heaven, whether by death or translation, one must be born again. She's not talking about an experience, in SC 29, that a non-SDA cannot have.

MM: You seem to think 99 out of 100 people believe they are saved with certain of their sinful habits in tact, that is, unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified. But you also seem to believe they cannot be translated alive in such a state. Do you have inspired quotes to substantiate your views?

TE: God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!

MM: This doesn’t make sense to me. Are you saying the reason people retain certain of their sinful habits after they are supposedly born again is because they refuse to receive the truth, and that in spite of their rejection of the truth they are living in a saved state?

DA 489
Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5}


TE: This isn't what I said. You previously disagreed with something I said. I asked for clarification about what it was that I said that you disagreed with. I asked you specific questions above regarding that. What specifically about I wrote did you disagree with? Is it with the statement that SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Or something else?

MM: You seem to believe the SC 29 quote excludes people knowing about the commandment to keep the seventh-day Sabbath holy, and that it teaches such people are born again and saved. I disagree. I believe the quote is referring to people who have learned everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe.

Again, here is it what she said about the law and character of God: “The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” (SC 29)

Here is what she wrote about making void the law of God. “The world is in copartnership with the professed Christian churches in making void the law of Jehovah. God's law is set aside, it is trampled underfoot; and from all the loyal people of God, the prayer will ascend to heaven, "It is time, for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law" (3SM 424) It concerns the Sabbath.

“Because the law of the Lord is perfect, and therefore changeless, it is impossible for sinful men, in themselves, to meet the standard of its requirement. This was why Jesus came as our Redeemer. It was His mission, by making men partakers of the divine nature, to bring them into harmony with the principles of the law of heaven. When we forsake our sins and receive Christ as our Saviour, the law is exalted. The apostle Paul asks, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31. (MB 50)

You would have us believe that such inspired insights prove people complete the process of conversion before they know anything breaking the law of God. “When we forsake our sins and receive Christ as our Saviour, the law is exalted.” How can you expect me to believe that breaking the Sabbath commandment is overlooked by God in the SC 29 quote?

TE: Thank you. So "justification by faith," "saved," and "converted" are three different things. "Converted" is the same as "born again." I have this right, don't I? (you don't need to redescribe each of the terms, unless I'm wrong)

MM: Yes, people experience the miracle of rebirth the instant they complete the process of converting from darkness to light.

TE: So you agree it would be petty of me to make you confess every wrong thing you've thought about me, or said in private conversations, etc. during the period you were mad at me? Isn't my seeing that you are truly contrite enough? Isn't this the message of the Prodigal Son? Before the son could rehearse his speech, the father had already forgiven him. In fact, before he evenn saw his son, he had already forgiven him.

MM: You seem to be implying that God doesn’t care if we repent of all the times we have misrepresented Him, that He forgives us even before we repent. Who, then, can be lost? If everyone is forgiven, doesn’t that mean everyone is saved?


TE: I'm not sure what you're saying. 1 Cor. 13:5 clearly says that love (agape, and recall from John that God is agape) keeps no record of wrongs. You can't dispute that, because that's what it says. When you write, "it is also written ..." are you trying to make the point that 1 Cor. 13:5 is incorrect? I can't see where what you wrote addressed 1 Cor. 13:5 in any way. It must mean something.

MM: I believe you are misapplying verse 5. Here is how it reads, “Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil.” It says nothing about whether or not God keeps a record of the sins people have committed. That He does is clear. That’s partly what the investigative judgment is all about.

GC 481, 482
There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7. {GC 481.2}

Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel. {GC 482.1}

MM: So, yes, God does have a record or knowledge of our sinful habits He wants to save us from, so that He can empower us to live in harmony with His will and way, so we can be like Jesus.

How can God make “us right with Him” without setting us free from the sinful habits that make us unlike Jesus?

TV: Well percieved for you Mike. \:\) I wouldnt be suprised to find out, if this particular truth was preached about the same frequency in non-SDA churches as it is in SDA churches.

MM: Thomas, is this idea taught by the SDA church? Is it found anywhere in the SOP? Is it supported in the book The Great Controversy?

TE: You believe you have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted, correct?

MM: As you know, the way the Remnant Church enumerates her mission and message is not important. At any rate, yes, people complete the process of converting from darkness to light when they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

TE: I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.

MM: Do you agree with me, then, that God reveals to people, in light of the cross, all of their sinful habits during the process of conversion, before they are born again? Or, do you believe God waits to reveal to them certain sinful habits until the time is right?

TE: You don't even believe God reveals "all of their sinful habits" because you except, at times anyway, smoking and polygamy, and I assume also drinking (if Luther was saved).

MM: Please answer the question. I’ll rephrase it - Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits until the time is right? If so, why?

TE: I don't know if you're asking something in this last part, or looking for a comment, or what.

MM: I asked you the following questions regarding the quote you posted to prove Sister White taught people are born again with certain of their sinful habits unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified. You have not yet answered them.