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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#86300
03/12/07 06:26 PM
03/12/07 06:26 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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TE: You believe you have to live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted, correct?
MM: As you know, the way the Remnant Church enumerates her mission and message is not important. At any rate, yes, people complete the process of converting from darkness to light when they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded.
The basic point is that no one who is not an SDA is converted (which isn't to say being an SDA is sufficient; but it is necessary).
TE: I've never said that conversion involves God's waiting to reveal certain sinful habits until the time is right. Conversion involves God's revealing Christ to us, and our need for Him. That's what I've said. It doesn't involve God's not doing something.
MM: Do you agree with me, then, that God reveals to people, in light of the cross, all of their sinful habits during the process of conversion, before they are born again? Or, do you believe God waits to reveal to them certain sinful habits until the time is right?
I believe the way Waggoner expressed it is accurate, and that this agrees with what Sister White wrote. I don't agree with your way of phrasing the question, which implies God is somehow at fault. God reveals truth to us as fast as we are able and willing to receive it. We do not need all truth to be converted. We need to know the truth the publican knew, that God is merciful to sinners.
TE: You don't even believe God reveals "all of their sinful habits" because you except, at times anyway, smoking and polygamy, and I assume also drinking (if Luther was saved).
MM: Please answer the question. I’ll rephrase it - Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits until the time is right? If so, why?
Unless you don't believe Luther was converted, you don't believe it yourself. Why?
TE: I don't know if you're asking something in this last part, or looking for a comment, or what.
MM: I asked you the following questions regarding the quote you posted to prove Sister White taught people are born again with certain of their sinful habits unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified. You have not yet answered them.
I addressed these. The basic difference in our position is that you have a different understanding of what "conversion" means. You see it as having to do with being in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs, or, to put it in other terms, to be in harmony with the teachings of the remnant church. I see it as being in harmony with Christ. I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.
Quote: Here is what DA 175, 176 says:
1. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself.
MM: At this point in the process people are not converted or born again yet. Do you agree?
2. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.
MM: They repent of, in light of the cross, their sins (we do not agree on which sinful habits God waits to reveal until after they are born again), but they’re still not yet converted or born again. Do you agree?
3. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.
MM: The word “then” indicates a before and after sequence. I believe it pinpoints the precise moment they experience the miracle of conversion and rebirth. Do you agree?
4. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.
MM: The phrase "are brought into obedience” is present tense. It is saying the "thoughts and desires" are brought into obedience to the will of God the moment they are born again. It does not mean they are gradually brought into obedience over a long period of time. I’m fairly sure you do not agree with this insight. Am I right?
5. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.
MM: While abiding in Jesus they are empowered to subdue, that is, kept from resurfacing, “all” (not some) of their former sinful habits the moment they are converted and reborn. Again, I doubt you agree. Am I right?
6. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God."
MM: The word “then” in this sentence reiterates the before and after sequence pinpointed in the above mentioned sentence. It describes them delighting in doing the will of God (present tense) as outlined in the law. It does not portray them looking forward to the day (future tense) when they will be able to do it. I’m sure you disagree. Am I right?
“By their fruits ye shall know them.” We do not have to “judge” people to “discern” they are not obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded. It is true, though, that just because people appear to be in harmony with the law of God it does not necessarily mean they are. It is not for us to judge motive.
However, the Bible and the SOP clearly define and describe the steps to Christ. We can know and experience these steps perfectly, unto the honor and glory of God our Father. Ignorance is not bliss; it cannot set us free from our sinful habits, it cannot make us like Jesus.
By beholding we become changed. We become like Jesus Christ by knowing Him, and seeing Him as He is. "When He comes, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#86305
03/12/07 08:40 PM
03/12/07 08:40 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?
TE: I understand the 3AMs as having to do with the Gospel, and in particular, God's character, as the COL quote I provided points out. But, with this caveat of a likely difference in emphasis, I agree your view (i.e. answer to your questions is "no" to both.)
MM: I also believe the 3AMs have to do with the gospel and the character of God. It is difficult, though, to overlook the emphasis prophecy places on the Sabbath-Sunday crisis. It is also difficult to overlook the condemnation of non-SDA churches and the desperate call to come out of them. I have yet to see a solid case made from the bible that this is indeed a crisis centering around Sabbath-Sunday... And that the condemnation of false worship is a condemnation of non-SDA churches... ... Thomas
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#86306
03/12/07 08:46 PM
03/12/07 08:46 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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TV: Well percieved for you Mike. \:\) I wouldnt be suprised to find out, if this particular truth was preached about the same frequency in non-SDA churches as it is in SDA churches.
MM: Thomas, is this idea taught by the SDA church? Is it found anywhere in the SOP? Is it supported in the book The Great Controversy? As a good salesman, the SDA church does not tell that the "competition" may also be selling an acceptable merchandise. So while I havent heard this taught by the SDA church, (I cant say about the entire volume of Ellens writings as I havent read it) and havent read it in the great controversy, I non the less believe that God would confirm this.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: vastergotland]
#86308
03/12/07 09:31 PM
03/12/07 09:31 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I have yet to see a solid case made from the bible that this is indeed a crisis centering around Sabbath-Sunday... And that the condemnation of false worship is a condemnation of non-SDA churches... The issue isn't SDA vs. non-SDA but true God vs. false God. Many SDA's will be deceived, and many non-SDA's will join God's side during the loud cry. His sheep will hear His voice.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#86360
03/13/07 03:16 PM
03/13/07 03:16 PM
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1. Do you agree no one will be translated alive if they are ignorant of the truth? Will anyone slip past probation ignorant of the 3AMs and be caught up to meet Jesus in the air? TE: I understand the 3AMs as having to do with the Gospel, and in particular, God's character, as the COL quote I provided points out. But, with this caveat of a likely difference in emphasis, I agree your view (i.e. answer to your questions is "no" to both.) MM: I also believe the 3AMs have to do with the gospel and the character of God. It is difficult, though, to overlook the emphasis prophecy places on the Sabbath-Sunday crisis. It is also difficult to overlook the condemnation of non-SDA churches and the desperate call to come out of them. TE: There is not time in or lives where we have "zero sense of guilt."
MM: I believe people who have completed the process of conversion, people who are abiding in Jesus, people who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, people who are partaking of the divine nature, people who are obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded – I believe these people are blessed with zero guilt.
TE: This sounds like opening one up to a dangerous self-deception, like the Holy Flesh movement. Once you think you've arrived, it's difficult to be convinced differently. The mind is exceptionally able at twisting things around to one's own perspective.
MM: I agree people must be careful not to excuse sinning with a false sense of security and freedom, but I disagree they must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty. The truth sets us free. We are free indeed if we are abiding in Jesus. “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” “Ye may know that ye have eternal life.” TE: I'm constantly amazed at your ability to come to conclusions like this. I don't understand how you read things. It's really odd. "must nurture a sense of guilt to avoid being guilty"? What an idea! I doubt anyone in all history has suggested such a thing. I certainly haven't. MM: Okay, what, then, did you mean when you wrote – “There is not time in or lives where we have ‘zero sense of guilt.’” I assumed you meant, There is no time in our lives where we have a zero sense of guilt. How are you using the phrse “zero sense of guilt”? TE: Not only does SC 29 not discuss what you are suggesting, but none of it does. The idea that one needs to confess every sinful habit in order to be converted simply doesn't exist anywhere in inspiration. There's absolutely no reference to "every sinful habit cultivated since birth" either here or anywhere else.
MM: I disagree. I believe the word “every” in SC 29 means “every”, not some. She is very clear about it. “The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man.” (SD 300) Not gradually crucified after we are born again, as you seem to believe. God does not keep people in the dark, as you seem to believe, regarding their sinful habits. TE: This sounds like the argument with Calvinists involving the meaning of the word "all." That is, it says "all the world would be taxed," but it's only a small portion of the world that was taxed. The word "every," like any word, needs to be taken in context. You must have some totally different idea about what she's talking about. I'm sure 99 out of a hundred people, more likely closer to 100 out of 100 on the average, would understand she's talking about the experience of a person being saved, not the experience of preparing for translation, which seems to be what you are talking about. It's true every sin must be brought to mind in order to be translated, but not to be born again. To enter heaven, whether by death or translation, one must be born again. She's not talking about an experience, in SC 29, that a non-SDA cannot have. MM: You seem to think 99 out of 100 people believe they are saved with certain of their sinful habits in tact, that is, unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified. But you also seem to believe they cannot be translated alive in such a state. Do you have inspired quotes to substantiate your views? TE: God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God! MM: This doesn’t make sense to me. Are you saying the reason people retain certain of their sinful habits after they are supposedly born again is because they refuse to receive the truth, and that in spite of their rejection of the truth they are living in a saved state? DA 489 Our condemnation in the judgment will not result from the fact that we have been in error, but from the fact that we have neglected heaven-sent opportunities for learning what is truth. {DA 489.5} TE: You're misreading her intent. The "every" applies to things we are aware of as being wrong, of course. It doesn't incorporate things we don't know are wrong.
MM: I disagree. I believe she is referring to people who are being led step by step to Christ in God’s appointed way, that is, learning how to observe everything Jesus commanded. The SC 29 quote is very clear. There is no indication it implies certain sinful habits are overlooked.
TE: For example, a non-SDA would not be aware of breaking the Sabbath, but SC 29 is speaking to their conversion just as much as to the conversion of an SDA. There's absolutely nothing in SC which applies only to SDA's. She gives no indication that conversion means anything different than being saved.
MM: I disagree.
TE: “I disagree” With what? With the statement the SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Is this what you think? Or are you disagreeing with something else?
MM: Again, I believe SC 29 refers to people who are experiencing the initial steps of conversion in God’s appointed way. See Matthew 28:19, 20. TE: This isn't what I said. You previously disagreed with something I said. I asked for clarification about what it was that I said that you disagreed with. I asked you specific questions above regarding that. What specifically about I wrote did you disagree with? Is it with the statement that SC is dealing specifically with SDA's? Or something else? MM: You seem to believe the SC 29 quote excludes people knowing about the commandment to keep the seventh-day Sabbath holy, and that it teaches such people are born again and saved. I disagree. I believe the quote is referring to people who have learned everything Jesus commanded us to obey and observe. Again, here is it what she said about the law and character of God: “The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.” (SC 29) Here is what she wrote about making void the law of God. “The world is in copartnership with the professed Christian churches in making void the law of Jehovah. God's law is set aside, it is trampled underfoot; and from all the loyal people of God, the prayer will ascend to heaven, "It is time, for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law" (3SM 424) It concerns the Sabbath. “Because the law of the Lord is perfect, and therefore changeless, it is impossible for sinful men, in themselves, to meet the standard of its requirement. This was why Jesus came as our Redeemer. It was His mission, by making men partakers of the divine nature, to bring them into harmony with the principles of the law of heaven. When we forsake our sins and receive Christ as our Saviour, the law is exalted. The apostle Paul asks, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31. (MB 50) You would have us believe that such inspired insights prove people complete the process of conversion before they know anything breaking the law of God. “When we forsake our sins and receive Christ as our Saviour, the law is exalted.” How can you expect me to believe that breaking the Sabbath commandment is overlooked by God in the SC 29 quote? TE: Thank you. So "justification by faith," "saved," and "converted" are three different things. "Converted" is the same as "born again." I have this right, don't I? (you don't need to redescribe each of the terms, unless I'm wrong) MM: Yes, people experience the miracle of rebirth the instant they complete the process of converting from darkness to light. TE: So you agree it would be petty of me to make you confess every wrong thing you've thought about me, or said in private conversations, etc. during the period you were mad at me? Isn't my seeing that you are truly contrite enough? Isn't this the message of the Prodigal Son? Before the son could rehearse his speech, the father had already forgiven him. In fact, before he evenn saw his son, he had already forgiven him. MM: You seem to be implying that God doesn’t care if we repent of all the times we have misrepresented Him, that He forgives us even before we repent. Who, then, can be lost? If everyone is forgiven, doesn’t that mean everyone is saved? TE: It's teaching us that God is quick to forgive, and He doesn't have a list of sins we have to confess before we can be made right with him. As 1 Cor. 13 tells us, "Love does not keep track of wrongs".
MM: I disagree.
TE: Here it is: “It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.” (1 Cor. 13:5)
MM: It is also written, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Sister White agrees:
SC 38 True confession is always of a specific character, and acknowledges particular sins. They may be of such a nature as to be brought before God only; they may be wrongs that should be confessed to individuals who have suffered injury through them; or they may be of a public character, and should then be as publicly confessed. But all confession should be definite and to the point, acknowledging the very sins of which you are guilty. {SC 38.1}
MM: So, yes, God does have a record or knowledge of our sinful habits He wants to save us from, so that He can empower us to live in harmony with His will and way, so we can be like Jesus. How can God make “us right with Him” without setting us free from the sinful habits that make us unlike Jesus? TE: I'm not sure what you're saying. 1 Cor. 13:5 clearly says that love (agape, and recall from John that God is agape) keeps no record of wrongs. You can't dispute that, because that's what it says. When you write, "it is also written ..." are you trying to make the point that 1 Cor. 13:5 is incorrect? I can't see where what you wrote addressed 1 Cor. 13:5 in any way. It must mean something. MM: I believe you are misapplying verse 5. Here is how it reads, “Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil.” It says nothing about whether or not God keeps a record of the sins people have committed. That He does is clear. That’s partly what the investigative judgment is all about. GC 481, 482 There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7. {GC 481.2} Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel. {GC 482.1} MM: So, yes, God does have a record or knowledge of our sinful habits He wants to save us from, so that He can empower us to live in harmony with His will and way, so we can be like Jesus. How can God make “us right with Him” without setting us free from the sinful habits that make us unlike Jesus?
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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#86362
03/13/07 03:24 PM
03/13/07 03:24 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Southwest USA
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Thomas, I understand you believe non-SDA churches are also teaching the truth regarding Revelation 14:6-12, what is sometimes referred to as the 3AMs. Please do me a favor and summarize them. Thank you. I have always believed the SDA church interpretation is correct. So, I would like to know what you believe is the truth about them.
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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#86367
03/13/07 04:19 PM
03/13/07 04:19 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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TE: The basic point is that no one who is not an SDA is converted (which isn't to say being an SDA is sufficient; but it is necessary).
MM: They may be in the process of converting from darkness to light, but they cannot complete it until they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded, which, yes, means they must be living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.
TE: I believe the way Waggoner expressed it is accurate, and that this agrees with what Sister White wrote. I don't agree with your way of phrasing the question, which implies God is somehow at fault. God reveals truth to us as fast as we are able and willing to receive it. We do not need all truth to be converted. We need to know the truth the publican knew, that God is merciful to sinners.
MM: “We do not need all truth to be converted.” I realize this is what you believe, but you have yet to support it with Bible and SOP passages. The poor publican you mentioned did not complete the process of conversion; instead, he embarked upon it on that day. “His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin.” Again, only the truth can set us free; not half of it.
“The poor publican who prayed, ‘God be merciful to me a sinner’ (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin.” (SC 30, 31)
TE: “Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits until the time is right? If so, why?” Unless you don't believe Luther was converted, you don't believe it yourself. Why?
MM: Luther was in the process of converting from darkness to light, but he did not complete it before he died. Being “converted” means you have learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Again, Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits?
TE: I addressed these. The basic difference in our position is that you have a different understanding of what "conversion" means. You see it as having to do with being in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs, or, to put it in other terms, to be in harmony with the teachings of the remnant church. I see it as being in harmony with Christ. I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.
MM: “I addressed these.” You posted DA 175, 176 to prove Sister White teaches people are converted before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. But I believe it teaches what I have been advocating. You say you have addressed it already but in reality you said you saw no reason to because you believe it was being too picky. Why, then, did you post it? It clearly does not prove your point.
“I see [converted] as being in harmony with Christ.” So do I. The difference between you and I is that you believe people complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Jesus demonstrated what it means to be in harmony with Him. “As Christians, we are to manifest to the world the character of Christ in all the affairs of life. To be a Christian means to act in Christ's stead, to represent Christ.” (SW 38)
“I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.” And I do not believe people have to be an SDA to be saved. But to complete the process of converting from darkness to light they must live in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.
TE: By beholding we become changed. We become like Jesus Christ by knowing Him, and seeing Him as He is. "When He comes, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
MM: I agree. But you seem to believe that by beholding Christ converted people gradually become less and less sinful. Whereas I believe it means they become more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit. People are born again like Jesus, they have learned how to live in harmony with Him, they obey and observe everything He commanded.
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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#86371
03/13/07 05:08 PM
03/13/07 05:08 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Thomas, I understand you believe non-SDA churches are also teaching the truth regarding Revelation 14:6-12, what is sometimes referred to as the 3AMs. Please do me a favor and summarize them. Thank you. I have always believed the SDA church interpretation is correct. So, I would like to know what you believe is the truth about them. And whats wrong with this summary? http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/forum...rt=12#Post86233
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: vastergotland]
#86388
03/14/07 01:26 AM
03/14/07 01:26 AM
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TE: The basic point is that no one who is not an SDA is converted (which isn't to say being an SDA is sufficient; but it is necessary). MM: They may be in the process of converting from darkness to light, but they cannot complete it until they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded, which, yes, means they must be living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church. The Light is a person, not a bunch of doctrines. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light, as soon as they make the decision to respond to that knocking on the heart. The protracted process which Ellen White speaks of is the process that leads up to the person making the decision to respond to that knocking. It may appear to be an all-of-the-sudden decision, but in reality the Spirit has been at work for that person's whole life.
How would you use your ideas to interpret conversion before 1844? Was no one converted? (or should some other date besides 1844 be used?)TE: I believe the way Waggoner expressed it is accurate, and that this agrees with what Sister White wrote. I don't agree with your way of phrasing the question, which implies God is somehow at fault. God reveals truth to us as fast as we are able and willing to receive it. We do not need all truth to be converted. We need to know the truth the publican knew, that God is merciful to sinners. MM: “We do not need all truth to be converted.” I realize this is what you believe, but you have yet to support it with Bible and SOP passages. No one has all truth but God. Does this need to be substantiated by the Bible and SOP passages?The poor publican you mentioned did not complete the process of conversion; instead, he embarked upon it on that day. “His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin.” Again, only the truth can set us free; not half of it. “The poor publican who prayed, ‘God be merciful to me a sinner’ (Luke 18:13), regarded himself as a very wicked man, and others looked upon him in the same light; but he felt his need, and with his burden of guilt and shame he came before God, asking for His mercy. His heart was open for the Spirit of God to do its gracious work and set him free from the power of sin.” (SC 30, 31) The poor publican was not converted? Was he justified? By the way, on Pentecost 3,000 were converted in a single day. How do you explain that? This makes sense according to the normal way of understanding conversion as accepting Christ as one's Savior, but how does it make sense with your idea? How could everything that Jesus taught have been taught in a single day?
Zaccheus is another example. He was converted in a single day.
If you spend just a little time looking at EGW's writings, you can see that she uses the terms "converted" and "saved" interchangeably. Here's an example:I have tried to ascertain how many souls have been converted to the truth as a result of the restaurant work here in -----. Some may have been saved, but many more might be converted to God if every effort were made to conduct the work in God's order, and to let light shine into the pathway of others. (CDF 473) Begin to say that you love the Lord, and that you will give yourselves to him. In doing this, you will begin to have new courage and faith to believe that your hearts are converted, that your souls are saved.(YI 1908) You need to be converted. You need to ask in humility and contrition, "What must I do to be saved?" (Battle Creek Letters p.66) Here's an example which shows that "born again" is used equivalently to "saved". Interestingly, it also involves Nicodemus (like the example from a previous post)The learned Nicodemus had read these pointed prophecies with a clouded mind, but now he began to comprehend their true meaning, and to understand that even a man as just and honorable as himself must experience a new birth through Jesus Christ, as the only condition upon which he could be saved, and secure an entrance into the kingdom of God. Jesus spoke positively that unless a man is born again he cannot discern the kingdom which Christ came upon earth to set up. Rigid precision in obeying the law would entitle no man to enter the kingdom of Heaven. (SOP Vol. 2 p. 132) Notice it points out that "rigid precision in obeying the law" is not the way, but each must "experience a new birth through Jesus Christ" as what? "the only condition upon which he could be saved." To be saved, one must be born again. Yet you say one can be saved without being born again.TE: “Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits until the time is right? If so, why?” Unless you don't believe Luther was converted, you don't believe it yourself. Why? MM: Luther was in the process of converting from darkness to light, but he did not complete it before he died. Being “converted” means you have learned how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Again, Do you believe God waits until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits? So Luther was not converted?! Really? Regarding your question, I've addressed that many times now. My answer's not going to change.TE: I addressed these. The basic difference in our position is that you have a different understanding of what "conversion" means. You see it as having to do with being in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs, or, to put it in other terms, to be in harmony with the teachings of the remnant church. I see it as being in harmony with Christ. I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted. MM: “I addressed these.” You posted DA 175, 176 to prove Sister White teaches people are converted before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. But I believe it teaches what I have been advocating. You say you have addressed it already but in reality you said you saw no reason to because you believe it was being too picky. As I stated, I don't believe you can analyze things as minutely as you were trying to do. As I stated, we have counsel against doing this very thing, and for good reason. That's not the way conversion works.Why, then, did you post it? It clearly does not prove your point. It did prove my point. She asked "How, then, are we to be saved" and followed that by explaining the process of being born again, which exactly proves my point. I've posted several other quotes this post which also prove it. She uses "saved" interchangeably with "justified," "born again," "converted," just like most people do.“I see [converted] as being in harmony with Christ.” So do I. The difference between you and I is that you believe people complete the process of converting from darkness to light before they learn how to live in harmony with everything Jesus commanded. People like Luther. You're right. That's a difference.Jesus demonstrated what it means to be in harmony with Him. “As Christians, we are to manifest to the world the character of Christ in all the affairs of life. To be a Christian means to act in Christ's stead, to represent Christ.” (SW 38) “I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.” And I do not believe people have to be an SDA to be saved. But they do in order to be converted, right? So there were no converted persons before 1844, (or 1863?) after the Apostles' day. In order to be converted, you have to be born at the right time. Accepting Christ isn't enough. Living up to all the light you have is not enough.
If you have to live up to "all truth," how can you ever know you've arrived? That's tantamount to saying, "I have all truth." If you believe that, how could you possible learn anything from anyone?
But to complete the process of converting from darkness to light they must live in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church. Regardless of when they were born, or of what they know.TE: By beholding we become changed. We become like Jesus Christ by knowing Him, and seeing Him as He is. "When He comes, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." MM: I agree. But you seem to believe that by beholding Christ converted people gradually become less and less sinful. This is your idea (of what I seem to believe). I've never said this.Whereas I believe it means they become more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit. This is my idea. I have said this. People are born again like Jesus, they have learned how to live in harmony with Him, truethey obey and observe everything He commanded. not if this means "must be a member of the SDA church." This is not Scriptural, and Ellen White never claimed this (that one must be an SDA to be converted, or born again)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does God wait until after we are born again to reveal to us certain sinful habits? If so, why?
[Re: Tom]
#86399
03/14/07 02:41 PM
03/14/07 02:41 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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MM: Thomas, I understand you believe non-SDA churches are also teaching the truth regarding Revelation 14:6-12, what is sometimes referred to as the 3AMs. Please do me a favor and summarize them. Thank you. I have always believed the SDA church interpretation is correct. So, I would like to know what you believe is the truth about them. TV: And whats wrong with this summary? Doesnt this question lose some of its 'adventist' edge if instead of 3AM, you where to write: 1,fear the Judge, worship the Creator, GOD 2,counterfit religion is fallen 3,anyone who worships the beast will burn MM: Thank you. Besides the first one, though, I still don't know what you believe the other two mean, except that you do not agree with the SDA interpretation. 1. Why do you believe Babylon symbolizes counterfeit religion? 2. Was there ever a time when counterfeit religion was not fallen? 3. What is counterfeit religion? 4. Do you have any examples in mind? 5. What is the beast? 6. What constitutes worshiping the beast? 7. What does it mean to burn in the presence of the Lamb for ever and ever? 8. Who are the 144,000? 9. What is the seal of God? 10. Does God wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits?
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