Tom, I am reposting the following questions and comments from post number 86360 (my first post on the previous page). Please address them when you have time. They are important to me. Thank you.

TE: The Light is a person, not a bunch of doctrines. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light, as soon as they make the decision to respond to that knocking on the heart.

MM: Are you saying the “light” in the Bible has nothing to do with the truths that set us free? That people are no longer in darkness irrespective of their ignorance of everything Jesus commanded?

TE: The protracted process which Ellen White speaks of is the process that leads up to the person making the decision to respond to that knocking. It may appear to be an all-of-the-sudden decision, but in reality the Spirit has been at work for that person's whole life.

MM: Are you saying the Holy Spirit will enter the heart before people begin partaking of the divine nature? That the Holy Spirit will occupy a divided throne?

TE: How would you use your ideas to interpret conversion before 1844? Was no one converted? (or should some other date besides 1844 be used?)

MM: No one can complete the process of converting from not knowing everything Jesus commanded to obeying everything He commanded before they learn how to obey everything He commanded. Do you agree?

TE: “‘We do not need all truth to be converted.’ I realize this is what you believe, but you have yet to support it with Bible and SOP passages.” No one has all truth but God. Does this need to be substantiated by the Bible and SOP passages?

MM: Tom, surely you must understand that I am referring to the truths necessary to obey everything Jesus commanded, the truths necessary to be translated alive. Are you saying we do not need these truths to convert to obeying everything Jesus commanded?

TE: The poor publican was not converted? Was he justified?

MM: The poor publican embarked upon the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded, but he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was not justified in the sense of justification by faith. The word “justified” in this context means in comparison to the Pharisee his prayer experience was acceptable to God.

TE: By the way, on Pentecost 3,000 were converted in a single day. How do you explain that? This makes sense according to the normal way of understanding conversion as accepting Christ as one's Savior, but how does it make sense with your idea? How could everything that Jesus taught have been taught in a single day? Zaccheus is another example. He was converted in a single day.

MM: As I have explained elsewhere, the people who were converted as a result of Jesus’ ministry were well aware of everything He commanded.

TE: If you spend just a little time looking at EGW's writings, you can see that she uses the terms "converted" and "saved" interchangeably. Here's an example:

MM: I thought we agreed on this point?

TE: Here's an example which shows that "born again" is used equivalently to "saved". Interestingly, it also involves Nicodemus (like the example from a previous post) … Notice it points out that "rigid precision in obeying the law" is not the way, but each must "experience a new birth through Jesus Christ" as what? "the only condition upon which he could be saved." To be saved, one must be born again. Yet you say one can be saved without being born again.

MM: Again, we agree on this point.

TE: So Luther was not converted?! Really?

MM: Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

TE: Regarding your question, I've addressed that many times now. My answer's not going to change. (“God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!” [86300])

MM: Okay. Thank you. Your answer to the title of this thread is – Yes, God does wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits. And the reason He waits is because they are unwilling to receive the truths that would require them to confess and forsake certain of their sinful habits.

TE: “‘I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.’ And I do not believe people have to be an SDA to be saved.” But they do in order to be converted, right? So there were no converted persons before 1844, (or 1863?) after the Apostles' day. In order to be converted, you have to be born at the right time. Accepting Christ isn't enough. Living up to all the light you have is not enough.

MM: Again, being “saved” and completing the process of “converting” to obeying everything Jesus commanded do not always occur simultaneously. Living up to all the light people believe is right and true is not always the same thing as learning how to obey everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

TE: “But to complete the process of converting from darkness to light they must live in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.” Regardless of when they were born, or of what they know.

MM: What? Are you saying people we were living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant church during the Dark Ages, before Jesus raised up the SDA church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages?

TE: “But you seem to believe that by beholding Christ converted people gradually become less and less sinful.” This is your idea (of what I seem to believe). I've never said this.

MM: Again, here is what you said about it: “God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!”

TE: “Whereas I believe it means they become more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit.” This is my idea. I have said this.

MM: Really? Are you saying we totally agree on what it means to mature in the fruits of the Spirit after people are born again?

TE: “People are born again like Jesus, they have learned how to live in harmony with Him,” true

MM: Really? Are you saying people are born again like Jesus? That they are living in harmony with His will, with everything he commanded?

TE: “they obey and observe everything He commanded.” not if this means "must be a member of the SDA church." This is not Scriptural, and Ellen White never claimed this (that one must be an SDA to be converted, or born again)

MM: Really? Are you saying non-SDAs are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded? That they have converted to obeying everything He commanded?

TE: The Light is a person, not a bunch of doctrines. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light, as soon as they make the decision to respond to that knocking on the heart.

MM: Are you saying the “light” in the Bible has nothing to do with the truths that set us free?

No.

That people are no longer in darkness irrespective of their ignorance of everything Jesus commanded?

No. I'm saying what I said. Anyone who knows Christ has passed from darkness to light. This is Biblical.

TE: The protracted process which Ellen White speaks of is the process that leads up to the person making the decision to respond to that knocking. It may appear to be an all-of-the-sudden decision, but in reality the Spirit has been at work for that person's whole life.

MM: Are you saying the Holy Spirit will enter the heart before people begin partaking of the divine nature?

The Holy Spirit entering the heart is a metaphor. The heart is a muscle which pumps blood. This isn't literal. To say the Holy Spirit will enter the heart is to speak of the communion of the Spirit with the mind of the believer. Before a person is a believer, the communion of a believer with the Spirit is not possible.

That the Holy Spirit will occupy a divided throne?

The throne isn't divided; the person has invited Christ to sit upon it. (remember, he accepted Christ as His personal Savior.)

TE: How would you use your ideas to interpret conversion before 1844? Was no one converted? (or should some other date besides 1844 be used?)

MM: No one can complete the process of converting from not knowing everything Jesus commanded to obeying everything He commanded before they learn how to obey everything He commanded. Do you agree?

I believe a person is converted, as I've said very many times now, when (s)he accepts Christ.

TE: “‘We do not need all truth to be converted.’ I realize this is what you believe, but you have yet to support it with Bible and SOP passages.” No one has all truth but God. Does this need to be substantiated by the Bible and SOP passages?

MM: Tom, surely you must understand that I am referring to the truths necessary to obey everything Jesus commanded, the truths necessary to be translated alive.

Conversion does not have to do with being translated alive. You're the only one I've ever met that has this idea. Conversion has to do with being right with God, being justified, being saved.

Are you saying we do not need these truths to convert to obeying everything Jesus commanded?

I'm saying what I said. We are not dependent upon any more truth to be converted than the publican was.

TE: The poor publican was not converted? Was he justified?

MM: The poor publican embarked upon the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded, but he did not complete it on the day he prayed at the temple. He was not justified in the sense of justification by faith. The word “justified” in this context means in comparison to the Pharisee his prayer experience was acceptable to God.

The publican was not justified? nor converted? MM, justification by faith and pardon are one and the same. When the publican asked for pardon, he received it, as did David, which Paul points out in Romans 4. Do you believe he wasn't forgiven?

TE: By the way, on Pentecost 3,000 were converted in a single day. How do you explain that? This makes sense according to the normal way of understanding conversion as accepting Christ as one's Savior, but how does it make sense with your idea? How could everything that Jesus taught have been taught in a single day? Zaccheus is another example. He was converted in a single day.

MM: As I have explained elsewhere, the people who were converted as a result of Jesus’ ministry were well aware of everything He commanded.

The people at Pentecost weren't aware of everything Jesus taught. How could they have been? There were many Gentiles there. Acts demonstrates that the "many things" had yet to be determined. The were converted as a result of believing Peter's preaching, which is recorded in Acts. It was the Gospel of Christ crucified that led to their being converted.

TE: If you spend just a little time looking at EGW's writings, you can see that she uses the terms "converted" and "saved" interchangeably. Here's an example:

MM: I thought we agreed on this point?

TE: Here's an example which shows that "born again" is used equivalently to "saved". Interestingly, it also involves Nicodemus (like the example from a previous post) … Notice it points out that "rigid precision in obeying the law" is not the way, but each must "experience a new birth through Jesus Christ" as what? "the only condition upon which he could be saved." To be saved, one must be born again. Yet you say one can be saved without being born again.

MM: Again, we agree on this point.

No, you stated before that "saved" was not "born again." "Born again" you said was equivalent to "converted," and has to do with knowing the 28 fundamenal beliefs. "Saved" just has to do with living up to the light you have. So an non-SDA can be saved, but not converted. This is what you said. I can produce your statements if you wish.

TE: So Luther was not converted?! Really?

MM: Luther did not complete the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

I believe Luther was converted, saved, born again, and justified by faith, all of which are describing the same thing.

TE: Regarding your question, I've addressed that many times now. My answer's not going to change. (“God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!” [86300])

MM: Okay. Thank you. Your answer to the title of this thread is – Yes, God does wait until after people are born again to reveal to them certain of their sinful habits. And the reason He waits is because they are unwilling to receive the truths that would require them to confess and forsake certain of their sinful habits.

I wouldn't say that's not necessarily the reason. Why did Luther remain a beer drinker?

TE: “‘I do not believe a person needs to be an SDA to be converted.’ And I do not believe people have to be an SDA to be saved.” But they do in order to be converted, right? So there were no converted persons before 1844, (or 1863?) after the Apostles' day. In order to be converted, you have to be born at the right time. Accepting Christ isn't enough. Living up to all the light you have is not enough.

MM: Again, being “saved” and completing the process of “converting” to obeying everything Jesus commanded do not always occur simultaneously.

Being "saved" and being "converted" are the same thing, as the quotes by EGW demonstrate.

Living up to all the light people believe is right and true is not always the same thing as learning how to obey everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

You are asking if not everyone has light on everything Christ taught? Yes, I agree with that. I also agree it's good to live up to the light you have.

TE: “But to complete the process of converting from darkness to light they must live in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant Church.” Regardless of when they were born, or of what they know.

MM: What? Are you saying people we were living in harmony with the mission and message of the Remnant church during the Dark Ages, before Jesus raised up the SDA church to restore and repair the truths that were all but lost during the Dark Ages?

I'm quoting your position. You are saying that one needs to know the 28 fundamental beliefs in order to be converted.

TE: “But you seem to believe that by beholding Christ converted people gradually become less and less sinful.” This is your idea (of what I seem to believe). I've never said this.

MM: Again, here is what you said about it: “God reveals the truth as fast as we are willing and able to receive it. God does not keep people in the dark, but people keep themselves in the dard by not receving truth. Please let's not blame God!”

Right! This is what I said.

TE: “Whereas I believe it means they become more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit.” This is my idea. I have said this.

MM: Really? Are you saying we totally agree on what it means to mature in the fruits of the Spirit after people are born again?

Since we disagree as to what it means to be converted, and as to what the important issues are, I doubt we agree on what this means. But I agree that when one is born again, one begins to mature in the fruits of the Spirit.

TE: “People are born again like Jesus, they have learned how to live in harmony with Him,” true

MM: Really? Are you saying people are born again like Jesus? That they are living in harmony with His will, with everything he commanded?

I'm saying what I wrote, but my words mean something different to me than they do to you. I won't repeat what you believe the words mean, because you already know, and I know what you mean by them. So I'll just clarify what they mean to me. They mean to be like Christ in character. They have begun a walk with Him. Like the new Christians in Acts, that people looked at, and mocked as "Christians," because they were followers of Christ.

TE: “they obey and observe everything He commanded.” not if this means "must be a member of the SDA church." This is not Scriptural, and Ellen White never claimed this (that one must be an SDA to be converted, or born again)

MM: Really? Are you saying non-SDAs are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded?

Moses was a non-SDA. Luther was a non-SDA. Peter was a non-SDA. William Miller was a non-SDA. Abraham was a non-SDA. To obey everything that God commands involves present truth. The light of one day is not the same as the light in another, and even in one day it's not always the case that everyone has equal access to that light.

That they have converted to obeying everything He commanded?

Tom

It seems your question concerning Luther was if he drunk beer or not. Why is that? Unless he was a drukard, and I believe we know he wasnt, why would this be a salvation issue in the first place?

These are some good questions. Made me realise how I still am building on second hand information. Babylon in revelation represents a power that stands against God while making merchants and rulers rich. From Rev 18:3 it seems reasonable to say that humans sell their soul to this entity, rulers for power and merchants for riches. And Gods people dwell in "it" until the call in 18:4. In this second look, I dont know why Babylon should be limited to counterfeit religion rather than to all things that achieve the above. Well spotted.

That which stands against God has been fallen since the day of the cross. However, it still to this day appears strong. There will be a day when it will be obvious to all that only God and those whom God keeps are in reality standing.

What is counterfeit religion? Uhm, a religion that has the apparence or the appeal of the true religion, without having Christ as its foundation. That could be anything from the Wicca coven to the Buddhist stupa to a Muslim mosque to probably include one or another SDA church where much form of godliness is to be found but none of its power.

The beast is someone who recieves worship, and as we know, only God is to recieve worship. Question, if (for the sake of this argument) you where to recieve and accept worship, would you then be an image of the beast?

Worshiping the beast is thus worship where God is not the object of the worship.

If the burning in the third angles message is literal, then it involves consumption in flames, if it is symbolical, then I dont know but I still dont doubt that it will be a most unpleasant experience for those who go into it.

The 144000 represent all of Gods people on earth during the times of struggle. As in before the time when final victory is declared and the war is officially over.

The "sealing of God" is another way of saying "baptism in Gods Spirit".

God reveals Himself, and sinfull habbits are taken care of by the fact that where light is, darkness is expelled.

I'm addressing MM's beliefs. I agree with what you wrote. It's just an example, because MM says no one is converted who doesn't follow the 28 fundamental beliefs. Luther drank beer, so he wasn't (according to MM's criteria) converted.

But the 28 mentions neither drinking nor beer...

Hey, Thomas, I tried to PM (send you a private message), but I couldn't. Maybe it doesn't like your umlat's, I don't know. Anyway, please PM me, so I can respond to you.


Thanks,

Tom

Really? Didn't know that.

On a closer look, it does mention "alcoholic beverages"...

Though for Luther, that is still a not clearcut as I believe beer in his day wouldnt be called an "alcoholic beverage" today...