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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87795
04/11/07 03:01 AM
04/11/07 03:01 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
The part I don't agree with is that the inputs of the future are determined by the inputs of the present. In particular, when it comes to free will, there are multiple possible inputs, so the inputs are not determined.


Let me try to make my description more rigorous.

Let's say that all cause/effect relationships are 1 second long (for simplicity). At t=0, we have a definite set of inputs. At t=1, we get our definite set of outputs from the cause/effect relationships. At t=1, another set of cause/effect relationships is about to start.

In my view, the inputs for t=1, to be used by the 2nd set of cause/effect relationships, are the outputs of the 1st set of cause/effect relationships that started at t=0 and ended at t=1. There are no outside sources of random inputs that will come into the system.

IOW, the bed I have now came about because of how I prepared it prior to now, and will be the bed I will lie on subsequent to now. Nobody else will touch my bed.

Do you agree with that?

Or do you believe that free will introduces factors which are inherently unpredictable, giving rise to random inputs that may or may not be inserted in the middle of the system?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: asygo] #87801
04/11/07 01:29 PM
04/11/07 01:29 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
What you're describing, Arnold, it sounds to me, is pure determinism. I don't agree with determinism. Even my knowing all about you, and the effect of the cause started at time t=0 will now allow me to definitively state what you will do at t=1, when you have another decision to make, because you have free will to choose between different alternatives. I can know all the alternatives you have available to pick from, but you choose which of the alternatives you will pick, and this choice is not (necessarily) determined. I say not necessarily because certain choices you make may be 100% sure things.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Daryl] #87802
04/11/07 01:38 PM
04/11/07 01:38 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Okay. Here it is again cleaned up:

I appreciate your taking the effort to do this!

TE: MM, why do you think God's ability to predict the future is limited to there being only one possible outcome?

MM: Because we’re not talking about God “predicting” the future. We’re talking about God jumping ahead in time and looking back on what has already happened. He simply reports to us what happened. As such, we’re talking about the past.

Do you believe God can jump ahead in time and look back on what has already happened?

No. I believe God sees the future through the same process we do, except that He sees with perfect clarity and is infinitely intelligent. By the same process, I mean that God uses His reason, His understanding of His creation, His understanding of cause and effect and so forth.

TE: I'll give two examples to show that your logic doesn't follow. First of all, consider a chess game. The world champion has achieved a winning position. He can calculate that no matter what route his opponent takes, he will be checkmated. Now he doesn't know exactly what moves the opponent will make, but he is 100% certain that he, the world champion, will win.

MM: There is no way your world champion chess player can be 100% certain he will.

You often assert things too strongly. I can give you a simple case which demonstrates your assertion here is false. Imagine a position where the next move is checkmate. The opponent has one of two choices. The master will deliver checkmate. He is 100% certain he will win.

Besides, what does it have to with God jumping ahead in time and looking back on what has already happened?

The context of my statement was to show that the future can be seen with clarity even though more than one possibility exists.

TE: Here's another example. Let's say I create a computer program to do some specific thing. Now there are all sorts of possibilities as to inputs, etc., but I know what the end of my program will be. I know every possible outcome because I built the program. My program can do that which it was designed to do, even without the specific inputs being known.

MM: Again, what does it have to with God jumping ahead in time and looking back on what has already happened?

I gave the chess master example in response to this question:

 Quote:
How can you say that the future is as clear to God as the present is clear to me, if He sees only possibilities?


TE: God's ability to know the future is not limited to there only being one possibility of how things might happen.

MM: Not so.

Not so? Then His ability to know the future is limited to there only being one possibility of how things might happen. I disagree with this assertion. God is not limited in this way. Even human beings aren't, as the example of the chess master and the computer programmer bear out.

He knows exactly how things will play out because He has already watched it happened. It is true, however, that when relating to us He might give us options and explain the various outcomes, but such communication does not imply God does not know exactly how things will play out.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87803
04/11/07 01:41 PM
04/11/07 01:41 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM: What about the case of William Miller? God laid him to rest to prevent him from rejecting the Sabbath and losing his salvation and causing others to lose their salvation.

I didn't see anything in what you quoted that would support the claim you made. Could you be more specific, please, in regards to which part of the quote you cites you think supports your assertion?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87806
04/11/07 02:30 PM
04/11/07 02:30 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
God's knowledge of what one will do in the future is based upon His knowledge of that person's character.

But if God knows the person's character so well that He knows the future of that person, then the future for you is also single-threaded and the person's character cannot change (remember, nothing that God knows will happen will fail to happen). In the past you stated that God can be surprised by His creatures. Can He or can't He? If He can be surprised, He can't know what someone will do in the future on the basis of His knowledge of that person's character.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Rosangela] #87811
04/11/07 03:14 PM
04/11/07 03:14 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
But if God knows the person's character so well that He knows the future of that person, then the future for you is also single-threaded and the person's character cannot change (remember, nothing that God knows will happen will fail to happen).

In the past you stated that God can be surprised by His creatures. Can He or can't He? If He can be surprised, He can't know what someone will do in the future on the basis of His knowledge of that person's character.

Are you talking about a person who's character is fixed, or one who's character is in flux? There are times in person's life where one can make a choice, and the result of that choice has a great impact on one's character. God knows the result of the different choices.

This is just what happened with Israel. God could see perfectly what would happen if Israel chose to be faithful, and what would happen if Israel chose not to be. Israel's character was being developed. God laid out the results of both choices.

Also not every choice one makes has to do with character. A person with a fixed character, say one of the 144,000, will make predicatable moral choices. But not every choice is moral. For example, suppose one is deciding on whether to eat one of two berries first. This isn't a moral choice. One might choose one berry over another for a whimsical reason.

Regarding being surprised, I do not think I wrote what you said I wrote. I try to be careful when writing on subjects which require preciseness, and I don't believe I wrote that. I'm not infallible, of course, so my memory could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure that's not what I wrote.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87813
04/11/07 03:18 PM
04/11/07 03:18 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Daryl, What does "heaven itself was imperiled" mean? Under the perspective you are suggesting, which is, I understand it, that there is only one possible future which God knows see like a T.V. rerun, how could heaven be in any danger?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #87829
04/12/07 02:51 PM
04/12/07 02:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
A: Therefore, given that there is only one set of DEFINITE, ACTUAL inputs right now, there is a DEFINITE, ACTUAL future that can be accurately predicted by extrapolating the countless cause/effect relationships involved. There may have been many possible inputs, and God may have known about all of them, but based on what's going on now, He knows what will result tomorrow. Do you agree?

MM: This cycle would have begun with Adam and Eve, correct?

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #87831
04/12/07 03:20 PM
04/12/07 03:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Quote:
MM: Because we’re not talking about God “predicting” the future. We’re talking about God jumping ahead in time and looking back on what has already happened. He simply reports to us what happened. As such, we’re talking about the past.

Do you believe God can jump ahead in time and look back on what has already happened?

TE: No. I believe God sees the future through the same process we do, except that He sees with perfect clarity and is infinitely intelligent. By the same process, I mean that God uses His reason, His understanding of His creation, His understanding of cause and effect and so forth.

This is why we’ll never be able to see eye to eye on this topic. We premises are incompatible.

 Quote:
MM: There is no way your world champion chess player can be 100% certain he will.

TE: You often assert things too strongly. I can give you a simple case which demonstrates your assertion here is false. Imagine a position where the next move is checkmate. The opponent has one of two choices. The master will deliver checkmate. He is 100% certain he will win.

No human being can be 100% he will win a chess game before the first move. In those cases where no matter what a person does the next move will place him in checkmate it does not take foreknowledge to know the future with clarity and certainty.

 Quote:
TE: God's ability to know the future is not limited to there only being one possibility of how things might happen.

MM: Not so. He knows exactly how things will play out because He has already watched it happened. It is true, however, that when relating to us He might give us options and explain the various outcomes, but such communication does not imply God does not know exactly how things will play out.

TE: Not so? Then His ability to know the future is limited to there only being one possibility of how things might happen. I disagree with this assertion. God is not limited in this way. Even human beings aren't, as the example of the chess master and the computer programmer bear out.

If you believed, as I do, that God can jump ahead and look back on what we call the future then you wouldn’t disagree with me. There are no alternative outcomes when reporting on what has already happened. The past is what it is. Nevertheless, for theoretical purposes we could discuss what might have happened if different choices had been made, but it wouldn’t change what did happen.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #87832
04/12/07 03:20 PM
04/12/07 03:20 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,615
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
MM: This cycle would have begun with Adam and Eve, correct?


I believe so. Maybe even before.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
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