Greg, thanx for the succinct summary. And David, I agree with your observations and look forward to exploring the issues you raised. Indeed, Mat 24 is as relevant now as it was in days of the early church. "The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow." GC 36.2

The "abomination of desolation" Jesus referred to seems to imply the one mentioned in Daniel 11:31 (rather than the one in 12:11), which deals specifically with the Roman occupation and final destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Daniel
11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Matthew
24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

But when Matthew 24 is fulfilled again in the last days what will constitute the “abomination of desolation” then? Daniel 8:11-14 seems to indicate a two phase fulfillment: 1) During pagan Rome, and 2) During Papal Rome. If the “daily” involves the sanctuary, then Pagan Rome took it away when she destroyed the earthly temple. And Papal Rome took it away when she began counterfeiting Jesus’ daily ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. But it ceased being a counterfeit in 1844 when Jesus discontinued the daily ministry in the holy place and began the annual ministry in the most holy place.

Concerning the prophecy in Daniel 12:11 it appears that between taking away the daily and setting up the desolating abomination there are 1290 years. I believe the 1290 years was fulfilled between 508 AD and 1798 AD, the dates Papal Rome ruled in Europe. But what was the desolating abomination in 1798? Was it the roots of communism? which were developing during the French Revolution? But I'm not sure I see a connection between Iraq and the desolating abomination.

Daniel
8:11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
8:12 And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Daryl and Zyph, did you happen to watch the President's speech yesterday on the destroyer ship Abraham Lincoln? It didn't sound like the voice of a dragon to me. No hint of enforcing a national or international Sunday Law. And did you notice he praised the UK (the mother of Canada) and Australia for their participation in the war?

Hi folks. I understood from her post that Linda was making an observation. I was happy to learn more about what sources Sister White emphasized. Of course Matthew 24 is important too.

I think the idea of a prophecy forum is good.

Isn't it Pippenger that draws a lot from this former SDA pastor/writer Greg?

I have never met Mr. Pippenger before. I have ended up at his website because he has a couple of Louis Weres books on his site. I like Louis Were but I have not read much of Mr. Pippengers materials so I would hesitate on commenting on him due to my ignorance of his thoughts and materials. I will probably get acquainted with him soon. Any one who likes Louis Were can't be all bad. I did find an interesting book on that site and it was Louis Weres analysis of EGW and Uriah Smith and Smiths teachings on turkey as the king of the north. I have not read it yet but I suspect it will be pretty good. The address is as follows:
http://64.4.10.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=17d13904c611be485b1cd2173eef2a78&lat=1051940760&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2etemcat%2ecom%2fnewview%2ehtm

Just as a final note. I think that Daniel, Revelation, Matthew 24, II Thessalonians 2, are all linked together. So happy studying.

A better address to that book is a follows:
http://www.temcat.com/EGW-and%20-U-Smith.htm

Mike, Satan himself appears as an angel of light. I don't want anyone thanking my country for killing the citizens of another country, and I believe this war was based on lies. I haven't seen it, but "Bowling for Columbine" is reliable regarding America's involvement in the international overthrow of regimes.

The war is only a symptom. Have you seen the laws in your country that were changed while the red herring was happening? Do you know you can be held without legal representation if someone says you are a threat to your country's security, and without proof? Most Americans have accepted a war against no-one - after all just who is "Terrorism"?? - and anything the government says is necessary, without questioning it. I suspect you're reacting in a patriotic way. Patriotism causes men to kill each other. I don't believe we should be patriotic the way the world promotes it, as all countries are made up of God's children, and all leaders are Divinely appointed. (I still haven't heard a clear answer on whether it is possible to have a wrong leader, not the one God wants.) Abuse of so-called Democracy has resulted in the suffering of humanity in exactly the same way as any form of earthly government. There are benign dictatorships, and evil democratically elected leaders. Saddam Hussein gave on-going food to support his people. I wonder if you have seen any of this on American television. He wasn't all bad. I wanted to comment on something you mentioned about America not getting involved in WW2 because she wasn't a super power. Well, she did have the atom bomb. She did watch other countries hurt for years, not months, and responded only after she was attacked. Terrorism has been hurting people world wide for years. Ireland is a classic example. America reacts only when it comes to her door.

I believe the USA was a country that promoted peace - but that is a long time ago. She looks the same, but don't cross her.

A valid point Zyph that we all need to step back and candidly evaluate what actuates a nation to make war. When there is moral declension on an unprecedented scale in Christendom, we can expect that the motives of any western country are not completely ultraistic. Canada for example has a long history of peace keeping, but it helped the US silently. Why?

Zyph wrote - "I still haven't heard a clear answer on whether it is possible to have a wrong leader, not the one God wants."

Perhaps rereading the history of King Saul, David and Solomon can provide answers. God appointed them to rule over Israel, and yet who can forget the base things they did? not to mention the good things they did! And let's not forget that God is currently tolerating Satan's regime.

If you're willing to defend Saddam's regime on account of the humanitarian aid he provided his countrymen then are you also ready to say the same thing in defense of Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Amin? Even Satan himself is willing to bless certain people if it furthers his evil plans.

If you are willing to believe that the USA is speaking like a dragon because she selectively goes after tyrants who have supported terrorist attacks against her people - then so be it. I doubt anybody can persuade you otherwise. But rest assured that if a cruel dictator should someday threaten the freedom of Australians the USA will fight to restore your freedom.

Yes, a day is coming when the USA will enforce a national and international Sunday Law. Which is when she speaks like a dragon. Regarding the laws you mentioned that allows the US government to hold, until found innocent, someone suspected of terrorist intentions or involvement are necessary considering the secret and nocturnal tactics they employ. The old system of waiting until they kill hundreds of innocent children before taking them into custody went out on September 11 - which was not soon enough for my tastes.

Hi Daryl

I am speaking in reference to your high recommendation of the Uriah Smith book, Daniel And The Revelation, in this post. I have long had questions about the real quality of this book. I have come to believe that it is not a good source of really reliable inspiration.

With a little research; it is easy to see why this should not be one of our “recommended books.” While Ellen White did at some points write commendably of the work that Smith was doing, we must be careful to note that she never once said that his book was inspired. And for good reason.

For one quick eg. : Uriah Smith's teachings about Armageddon (the military, Palestinian interpretation), the final conflict, were VERY DIFFERENT from the clear teachings in the Spirit of Prophecy that "the Sabbath question [the "Sign" of righteousness] is to be the issue [not Turkey, etc.] in the great final conflict in which all the world will act a part" Rev.3:10 says it like this:

Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This is precisely the error we as a people fall into today, when we try to take an individual war, such as the Iraqi conflict, and make it into a “sign,” and force fit it into our personal interpretations of history, and prophecy.

Ellen White teaches, in opposition to elder Smith that it is deception which will constitute the final battle:

“The Sabbath question is to be the issue in the great, final conflict, in which all the world will act a part.” (6T. 352).

In The Review And Herald, May 13, 1902; and in G.C. pp. 562, 582, 623, 656, 640; 6T. 410; TM. 465, etc., the Lord's servant quotes or refers to Rev. 16: 14.-16 and makes it definitely clear that "the final conflict" will be between the forces of good and evil over loyalty to the Commandments of God. The Bible, as I have already mentioned, backs this up very well.

Those who have learned from experience the teaching of righteousness by faith- how to obtain power from our Lord Jesus, the power-imparting King-priest-will be attacked by those who have not been freed from the tyranny of the prince of darkness. 1Co 15:57 "But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

It is this conflict, this battle for the mind, and for truth, which all last-day prophecies depict; and not a military conflict associated with the ending of Turkey or nations adjacent to the Euphrates; nor with the current Iraqi conflict turning out some certain way.

We need to be careful not to adopt the types of errors of uninspired books like Daniel & The Revelation. Although there are matters of truth, well said therein; there are some blatant errors. But truth has to be mixed with error, in order for error to have it's effect. Thankfully, the Lord’s servant, did not always see it necessary to trumpet the errors of our pioneers, so she has limited her public responses to Uriah Smith’s erroneous teachings.

Mike, you're making me uncomfortable. We are only trying to say that the USA will not become a tyrant overnight. National decline can be quick but not immediate. It is progressive, and we need to realize that there are signs that is is occuring throughout Christendom. Failure to recognize this could cause us to eventually support the most oppressive regimes out of a misguided patriotism which is what happened in Nazi Germany to most Seventh-day Adventists. Hitler didn't pass any Sunday laws that I am aware of. But German Seventh-day Adventists for the most part blindly followed him and it seems to me that many lost their souls in the process.

We need to give credit where credit is due, but let's not be blind to the fact that America's and the west's motives are not fully ultruistic.