The "patient, protracted process" isn't talking about a revelation of all of our defective traits of character. It's talking about our being converted.

Conversion has to do with a change of mind. Before being converted, we think one way. Self is the king. The law is not written in the heart. After conversion, we live for Christ. We are in harmony with God, and the principles of His kingdom.

The protracted process has to do with the Holy Spirit preparing the soil, so that the appeal can be made at the best possible time, when the soul has the best chance of responding, because God, above all, wants success (unfortunately, many choose not to respond, even so, as the parable of the seed cast to the ground on different soils illustrates).



This isn't speaking of our defective traits being brought to mind, but of our being brought to Christ. What we need to be saved is not a revelation of all of our character defects (which is more than we could bear) but Christ. So God gives us what we need, which is Christ.

If there are sins which we need to repent of so that we are willing and able to accept Christ, the Holy Spirit reveals these to us. But the goal is Christ, not the revelation of every character defect. Only that which gets in the way of our receiving Christ needs to be revealed.



I think is a misplaced emphasis. Instead our emphasis should be on beholding Christ.



No doubt this has to do with it.



No, I dont' think so. I don't see that any of these things were a part of the message. However, that sin, all sin, could be, and needed to be overcome *was* a part of the message. Jones, in particular, during his General Conference messages talked of this. He died in Christ, Christ taking our human nature, and Christ's overcoming of sin to our victory over sin.

I agree. Instead, they were gradually made of aware of all their cultivated sinful habits and traits of character during the long, patient, protracted process of conversion. They were born again without them. Otherwise, they did not experience true, genuine rebirth as defined in the Bible and SOP, which we both admit is "rare". Nevertheless, they might not have been made aware of certain sins of ignorance before they experienced the miracle of rebirth.

The Holy Spirit might not have opened their eyes to things like Sabbath keeping, diet and dress reform, and other distinctive doctrines that require Bible study and prayer. But all the sinful habits and behaviors "such as is common to man", ways that are offensive to people, do not qualify as sins of ignorance and are, therefore, revealed to them in light of the cross and must be confessed and crucified before they can experience rebirth.


Amen. But I suspect we have a different list of what is light and what is not light before and after a person experiences rebirth. I hope not.


Regarding the first paragraph, the first sentence, did you mean - "Since he had no unconfessed, uncrucified cultivated sinful habits that would keep him out of heaven, it is not necessary to give him time to do so." If this is what you meant, then I totally agree.

But your second paragraph concerns me. Here's why. You seem to be implying that born again believers possess certain forms of evil and wickedness that the Holy Spirit may or may not reveal to them before they go to heaven. You also imply that these forms of evil and wickedness are not out of harmony with God's will, that they will not keep them out of heaven. I cannot imagine such a thing. Please cite examples. Thank you.


In what way is polygamy a sinful habit? Why won't it keep people out of heaven?

If we switch "conversion" with "sanctification," I agree. Sanctification is the process of a lifetime, during which God makes known our cultivated sinful habits and traits of character. Thankfully, however, this is not a pre-condition to being forgiven.



According the the SOP, Jesus never explained the plan of salvation so fully as with Nicodemus. He we see that the light shining from the cross draws us to Himself, and that if we do not resist, we will be led to repentance at the foot of the cross, at which point the law is written in heart. Since the law is a transcript of God's character, this signifies that the sinner has been brought into harmony with God, and the principles of His government. He has been converted, born again.

Where in what Jesus said is found this theory that a long process of disclosing every sinful habit, every character defect, to be found?




Again, where is Jesus teaching is this idea expressed? What I see taught is that when we repent of our sins and accept Christ as our personal Savior, we are born again.



Might?



Where did Jesus teach this?

Amen. But I suspect we have a different list of what is light and what is not light before and after a person experiences rebirth. I hope not.


Regarding the first paragraph, the first sentence, did you mean - "Since he had no unconfessed, uncrucified cultivated sinful habits that would keep him out of heaven, it is not necessary to give him time to do so." If this is what you meant, then I totally agree.

But your second paragraph concerns me. Here's why. You seem to be implying that born again believers possess certain forms of evil and wickedness that the Holy Spirit may or may not reveal to them before they go to heaven. You also imply that these forms of evil and wickedness are not out of harmony with God's will, that they will not keep them out of heaven. I cannot imagine such a thing. Please cite examples. Thank you.


In what way is polygamy a sinful habit? Why won't it keep people out of heaven?

Are you saying sanctification is the lifelong process whereby God gradually make us aware of the sinfulness of the unholy traits and habits we have been cultivating all along ignorantly? If so, please quote inspired references. Thank you.

By the way, I agree with you that sins of ignorance do prevent God from forgiving the sins we confess and forsake. Nor do they prevent us from experiencing the miracle of rebirth. However, I suspect we disagree as to what constitutes a sin of ignorance, sinful traits and habits God can afford to wait to reveal to us until sometime after we experience the miracle of rebirth.

Until recently, though, I was certain we agreed sins of ignorance could not include sinful traits and habits that offend people around us, that cause them to question our profession, that cause them to despise the gospel, that cause them to conclude we are no different than before we were supposedly born again. Do we still agree on this point?


Where? Both in what you said above and in the quote you posted. People cannot have the law of God written in their heart, cannot be in harmony with the principles of government, and retain their former old man habits of sin. Jesus told Nicodemus, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." It's one or the other, not both. Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters."


Yes, born again abiding in Jesus, walking in the Spirit and seed of the new man. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."


Yes, people can experience rebirth before they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded. This applies to sins of ignorance, of which we have yet to agree on. But, there are times when people are properly prepared for baptism and they learn how to obey and observe everything Jesus commanded.

Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.


Please see quotes posted above. Now it's your turn to provide quotes from Jesus where He teaches people are born again with some of their cultivated sinful traits and habits in tact, that they will remain unrevealed, unconfessed, and uncrucified until the day the Holy Spirit decides to reveal it to them. Also, please name a modern day example. Thank you.

Before rebirth a person needs to know Christ. IOW Christ is the light that people need to know. Not some list.



I meant he can't have any character defects that would keep him out of heaven because Jesus told him he was going to heaven.



The same examples as before. As the thief lay hanging on the cross, there was a limited amount of things God could reveal to him, and he obviously had very little time to correct his habits. What could have been revealed to him?



There's no list here, MM. He recognized Christ and his need, and that was that.



What do you mean in what way? You agree that it's a sin. In the way that it's a sin. You agree that many who practiced polygamy will be in heaven, don't you?

The list of light represents the truth as it in Jesus. Knowing Jesus, therefore, includes knowing the list of light. Jesus warned against being deceived by false christs. Jesus said, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

No one can experience rebirth accidentally. It is the result of long wooing; a patient, protracted process. It doesn't happen the instant they learn about Jesus. Rebirth means our old man habits of are dead and buried; it means we have received the mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous fruits and attributes of God's character.


I agree with you that the thief has no unrevealed, unconfessed, uncrucified sinful traits and habits that must be revealed, confessed, and crucified in heaven. Any and all sinful traits and habits were crucified before he died because any and all uncrucified sinful traits and habits will keep him out heaven. He didn't need time to correct them because they were crucified, dead and buried.

But I'm not sure what you mean by - "No inspired statement says that God has to reveal everything evil about ourselves before [rebirth] can happen. It seems to me that one must vastly underestimate our wickedness to even consider this a possibility." You seem to be suggesting that there are certain forms or evil and wickedness that will not keep people out of heaven, that they will have time in heaven to crucify them. Please explain what you have in mind. Thank you.


I mean, in what way is having more than one spouse at a time a sinful habit? Sinful habits are formed by repeating the same behavior over and over again until it becomes ingrained and spontaneous. Sinful habits become sinful traits of character. Polygamy isn't a trait of character. Having more than one spouse at a time is not a repetitious behavior.

So, my question is - What is an example of a cultivated sinful trait and habit that will *not* keep someone out of heaven, that they will have time in heaven to crucify?

Tom, please address #98943 (two posts above this one). Thank you.

We're talking apples and oranges here. I don't conceive of things the way you do. Life is not about God's revealing some list to us.

Sin has wrecked us. When we come to Christ, we start a process of healing. During this process of healing, we learn more about Christ, and about ourselves. We become more and more like Him, as we see Him more clearly as He truly is.

This is how I think of things.



Serving a master and having a habit are two different things. Take a habit like swearing. There's a process involved.

1.Oh, swearing is bad. I shouldn't do that.
2.Person swears, catches himself.
3.Person catches himself before swearing, but still thinks it.
4.Person substitutes some innocuous though in place of the swearing in the thought process.
5.Person is healed.

Not every born again person stops swearing the instant they are born again. One *starts* the process of healing when one is born again.

As one continues to walk with Christ, one learns to speak more and more like Him. One learns that simply not swearing is just a beginning. In addition to not swearing, one should bless others with one's words.



This is a really poor approach to theology. You're taking a passage which is not addressing the subject of conversion and applying it to a subject it is not addressing. In addition, this is a passage which in heavily controverted as to its meaning. So you're using a passage which isn't addressing a subject, and one which whose meaning is contested, to develop a theology.

Instead, it would be better to develop a theology based on incontrovertible teachings which are addressing the subject. Take Jesus, for example. Please demonstrate something from the teachings of Jesus, who taught a great deal about conversion, where He teaches that before one can be converted they need to go through a long laundry list of sins.

Look at the parables He gave. The prodigal Son. The lost sheep. The publican praying. Look at His life, when He pardoned. The paralytic, the woman caught in adultery. Jesus was quick to forgive, as soon as their was a genuine interest on the part of the penitent sinner.

As David said, a contrite heart, God will not despise. All God needs is our hearts. Then healing can begin. Through the healing process, bad habits like swearing and others will be addressed.



You appear to think it's possible that a person can be made aware of every sin of ignorance they have before they are converted, or baptized. That this is just a matter of being properly taught by a minister. It appears to me that you are vastly underestimating our sinfulness, by several orders of magnitude.



What quotes? I don't see anything you've presented from Jesus Christ that would support the ideas you are suggesting. This simply isn't the way forgiveness works.

Let's say you do something to offend you. I'm upset at you. But I misunderstood what you did. You didn't really do the thing I thought you did. But I stay upset at me for years, and do all sorts of wrong things, like say bad things about you behind your back, and think bad things about you.

Then one day I discover my mistake. Really the bad thing I thought you did was a good thing. Oh no! I go to you and apologize. I ask you for forgiveness. I start to tell you how I was wrong to think badly of you, and so on.

What do you do? Do you make me tell you every bad thing I thought or did? Or do you see that I'm genuinely sorry, and forgive me?

Hopefully you would respond like a normal, decent human being and forgive me on the spot.

This is how God forgives us. As soon as He sees we are sincerely repentant, we are forgiven. In order for us to repent, we need to see the truth about the bad things we thought God was doing, that they were really good. Our sins may lead us to misinterpret God, so we need to see them too (the ones that are getting in our way of reconciliation). It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.

The Bible is full of lists of "dos and don'ts". Judgment is all about lists of right and wrong. God is clearly concerned about it; otherwise, He wouldn't make them or keep them. The reason it keeps coming up as we study together is because you seem to believe the list's do not matter, that all that matters is we learn to love and appreciate the character of God.

But this sounds more like a cop out than an answer to the questions I've been asking. List's aren't important to you until it becomes clear you believe there are certain sinful traits and habits the Holy Spirit waits to reveal until after people experience rebirth. You explain that these unrevealed, uncrucified traits and habits are not the types of sinning that cause people around them to despise the gospel or to conclude they are no better off than the common worldling.

You also explain that this process of gradually becoming aware of and crucifying non-offending, uncrucified sinful traits and habits is the process of sanctification. Obviously you have certain types of sinful traits and habits in mind, but you are usually hesitant to list them because you feel doing so isn't important. And when you do name one, it tuns out not to fit. it doesn't fall into the category you've identified as sinful traits and habits the Holy Spirit can wait to reveal to them until some later date. Then you get disgusted and tell me it just doesn't matter. But it does matter, Tom. It matters to me. Your idea that the Holy Spirit does not open my eyes to certain of my sinful ways until He thinks I'm ready to deal with it is disturbing, to say the least.


Tom, you're kidding me, right? What you just described is nothing less than the theory of evolution or devolution. There is no way you can support this view of sanctification from the Bible or the SOP. But if you think can support it, then please post the necessary quotes from the Bible or the SOP. Please, do not quote Jones or Waggoner if that’s where you got this idea from. I need to see it in the Bible or SOP first. Thank you.

By the way, is swearing and cursing one of those sinful traits and habits the Holy Spirit can wait to reveal to newborn babes until they are ready to deal with it? If not, then where does it say born again believers can swear while they are abiding in Jesus, while they are walking in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man?

Also, what do you mean by - "Serving a master and having a habit are two different things." Are you suggesting that serving Jesus and gradually outgrowing the sinful habit of swearing happens simultaneously? If so, please substantiate it from the Bible or the SOP. Thank you.