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Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #99144
05/07/08 06:29 PM
05/07/08 06:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, please address #99051 (above). Thank you.

Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #99156
05/07/08 07:09 PM
05/07/08 07:09 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Tom, you seem to be suggesting sinners are naturally suicidal, that they would sooner kill themselves than live indefinitely. But this isn't the impression one gets from reading about it in the Bible or the SOP.


I just quoted from the SOP. I just suggested what I had quoted. Here's what I said:

 Quote:
The wicked are excluded from heaven not because God does something to them, but because of what they have done to themselves. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary. They don't wish to be in heaven.


Here's what I quoted:

 Quote:
What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?...

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541-543)


 Quote:
Satan motivates sinners to think they can defeat God and gain access to the tree of life and live forever. The only thing that stops them is the fact God rains fire down upon them.


That's not so. First of all, one can see this isn't the case from what I just quoted. "Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves." This means it is something they themselves choose. That's what "voluntary" means.

Secondly, even in the GC description, you will see that it is not literal fire the stops their charge, but it is the revelation of truth that does so. The truth is revealed, and the wicked stop in their tracks. It's right there in GC!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #99205
05/09/08 08:05 PM
05/09/08 08:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
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So, Satan does not motivate and marshal the troops to believe they can overthrow the New Jerusalem and access the tree of life to live forever?

Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #99208
05/09/08 09:22 PM
05/09/08 09:22 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Satan starts to lead them on a mad charge, but they stop when the truth is revealed to them.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #99219
05/10/08 04:08 PM
05/10/08 04:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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I'm away from my computer right now, can you post the quote from GC. Thanx.

Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #99221
05/10/08 05:56 PM
05/10/08 05:56 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If you're away from your computer, how can you read what I post?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #99223
05/10/08 06:25 PM
05/10/08 06:25 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: "I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:11, 12.

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire.

Above the throne is revealed the cross; and like a panoramic view appear the scenes of Adam's temptation and fall, and the successive steps in the great plan of redemption. The Saviour's lowly birth; His early life of simplicity and obedience; His baptism in Jordan; the fast and temptation in the wilderness; His public ministry, unfolding to men heaven's most precious blessings; the days crowded with deeds of love and mercy, the nights of prayer and watching in the solitude of the mountains; the plottings of envy, hate, and malice which repaid His benefits; the awful, mysterious agony in Gethsemane beneath the crushing weight of the sins of the whole world; His betrayal into the hands of the murderous mob; the fearful events of that night of horror--the unresisting prisoner, forsaken by His best-loved disciples, rudely hurried through the streets of Jerusalem; the Son of God exultingly displayed before Annas, arraigned in the high priest's palace, in the judgment hall of Pilate, before the cowardly and cruel Herod, mocked, insulted, tortured, and condemned to die--all are vividly portrayed.(GC 666,667)[/quote]

There's too much to put the whole thing, or even a major part of it. But what happens is the wicked start to storm the city, and they are stopped by the revelation of truth. Rebellion started by way of the lies of Satan, who hid the truth about God. When the truth about God is revealed, rebellion is stopped in its tracks.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #99249
05/11/08 09:31 PM
05/11/08 09:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Not long after the scene you quoted we read:

 Quote:
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King
672
of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething
673
lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

It appears they become preoccupied with killing one another. In the midst of this slaughter God rains fire down upon them.

Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Mountain Man] #99289
05/13/08 01:41 AM
05/13/08 01:41 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, you wrote:

 Quote:
Satan motivates sinners to think they can defeat God and gain access to the tree of life and live forever. The only thing that stops them is the fact God rains fire down upon them.


What stops them is not God raining literal fire down upon them.

The exclusion of the wicked from heaven is voluntary with themselves. "Voluntary" means it's something they choose.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Will Jesus change our character when He returns? [Re: Tom] #99295
05/13/08 05:14 PM
05/13/08 05:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, surely you agree with the idea that Satan will be able to initially motivate the wicked to overthrow the New Jerusalem, to gain access to the tree of life, to eat and live forever. But if sinning causes sinners to desire death, why, then, will they desire to live forever after they are resurrected? True, they voluntarily will not want to live with saints or Jesus, but they will not want to die either.

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