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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Mountain Man] #99536
05/22/08 07:52 PM
05/22/08 07:52 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Mike,

This is how I see things.

We are born with some deficiencies and acquire others through a wrong upbringing. These deficiencies manifest themselves in wrong habits we form before our conversion:

“The human family is under the despotism of custom and false education, of hereditary and cultivated habits.” {SpM 40.2}

"There is no chance to plead for the retention of one idol, for the cherishing of one wrong hereditary or cultivated habit.” {YI, August 24, 1893 par. 4}

“The commandments of God are exceeding broad, and the Lord is not pleased to have His children disorderly, to have their lives marred by defects and their religious experience crippled, their growth in grace dwarfed, because they persist in cherishing hereditary and cultivated deficiencies in wrong habits that will be imitated by others and thus be perpetuated. If the grace of Christ cannot remedy these defects, what then constitutes transformation of character?” {TMK 157.4}

At conversion our mind is changed and renewed. These former habits are renounced, and new habits are formed:
“The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. ... A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong.” {Mar 237.1,2}

But both these habits and the pleasure we used to derive from them are still registered in our memory. Besides, Satan and the world incite us to resume our former behavior. That’s why we have a daily struggle:

“But because this experience is his [justification], the Christian is not therefore to fold his hands, content with that which has been accomplished for him. He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory.” {AA 476.3}

It’s like being a former addict. There is no permanent “cure.” The permanent cure will happen only at Christ’s coming, when the former habits are erased from our memory.

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Tom] #99539
05/22/08 09:50 PM
05/22/08 09:50 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
What you're writing here is simply confirming my point. The words are not synonyms in general, but they may be in special circumstances. You are qualifying the words. For example, "self" becomes "sinful self," "flesh," becomes "fleshly lusts".

I'm referring to all three expressions in the negative sense, and in this sense they are synonyms.
Obviously God has a self, but not a sinful self. In the same way, Christ didn't possess a self He had to subdue, so He didn't possess a sinful self.

About "flesh," Ellen White says that "flesh," in the negative sense, is synonym with "fleshly lusts" or "carnal lusts." Christ didn't possess these.

And, obviously, He also didn't possess a carnal mind.

 Quote:
Anyway, to your claim that science does not address the question of genetic tendencies to sin, it does address this, although the findings are very controversial. There's general agreement about how genes work and how tendencies are passed. The controversy comes into what should be included and what shouldn't be, and how much. (e.g. how much weight should be given to genetics for something like tendencies to homosexuality).

Science could address physical factors associated with homosexuality with which a person is born, but I don't think a parent who is a homosexual transmits a tendency for homosexuality to his children. For obvious reasons, very few homosexuals become parents, and very few homosexuals have a homosexual parent.

Anyway, I've never read anything about tendencies for greed, for selfishness, for vanity, etc. being genetically transmitted.

 Quote:
Ending on a positive note, that you could come up with the insight you did just based on the passages you cite is a nice accomplishment. Sounds like you had help! (I'm thinking of divine help, lest you get the wrong idea).

This is a fascinating theme, isn't it? In fact it was Ellen White's insistence on the subject of love that called my attention.

She says:

"Through yielding to temptation, man became the enemy of God, a partaker of the Satanic nature. The image of God in which he had been created was marred and distorted. The character of man was out of harmony with the character of God..."{ST, February 13, 1893 par. 6}

Through sin, man became a partaker of the satanic nature. And, of course, the essence of the satanic nature is selfishness, in the same way that the essence of the divine nature, of the divine image, of the divine character, is love. That's why

"Every soul saved will be saved through love, which begins with God. True conversion is a change from selfishness to sanctified affection for God and for one another." {1SM 115.1}

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Rosangela] #99547
05/22/08 11:25 PM
05/22/08 11:25 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
I'm referring to all three expressions in the negative sense, and in this sense they are synonyms.
Obviously God has a self, but not a sinful self. In the same way, Christ didn't possess a self He had to subdue, so He didn't possess a sinful self.

About "flesh," Ellen White says that "flesh," in the negative sense, is synonym with "fleshly lusts" or "carnal lusts." Christ didn't possess these.

And, obviously, He also didn't possess a carnal mind.


If you're referring to the terms in a special sense, then that confirms the point I was making.

Regarding self, Christ had a self which had to be denied. He denied His self all the way to the cross. He chose to do not His own will, but the will of His Father.

The same struggle we face with self, Christ face, which is why He said that if we wish to follow Him we should take up our cross and follow Him. We can only follow Him in our denial of self if He did what we need to do.

 Quote:
Technology 148 (1999) (stating that while “[t]he gene for greed might help an individual get ahead on.


This looks to be somehow referenced by "Herd Behavior in Designer Genes" (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=170688).

I found this by looking for just a few seconds. I'm sure a determined search could find all sorts of similar things.

 Quote:

This is a fascinating theme, isn't it? In fact it was Ellen White's insistence on the subject of love that called my attention.

She says:

"Through yielding to temptation, man became the enemy of God, a partaker of the Satanic nature. The image of God in which he had been created was marred and distorted. The character of man was out of harmony with the character of God..."{ST, February 13, 1893 par. 6}

Through sin, man became a partaker of the satanic nature. And, of course, the essence of the satanic nature is selfishness, in the same way that the essence of the divine nature, of the divine image, of the divine character, is love. That's why

"Every soul saved will be saved through love, which begins with God. True conversion is a change from selfishness to sanctified affection for God and for one another." {1SM 115.1}


Yes, it is a fascinating study.

I think of their being two roads, one the road of love, and the other the road of self. At first there was only one road, but then Satan invented a second road. Satan has argued that the second road is the way to God, whereas God has claimed it is road to death.

This difference of opinion led to a controversy. Issues of trust and character are brought to the forefront. Because Satan is so clever at masking his true intentions, as well as his own character, and twisting God's intentions and character, sin has gone on for as long as it has. Because free will is involved, it's not an easy thing, even for God, to make the truth known. But not until all free will creatures know the truth can the Great Controversy be brought to an end.

So to tie back to the idea that partaking of the divine nature is the restoration of God's nature of love in man, this can be easily seen as corresponding to man's being enabled to get back on the right road.

This quote fits right in:

 Quote:
"Every soul saved will be saved through love, which begins with God. True conversion is a change from selfishness to sanctified affection for God and for one another.


My favorite passage regarding perfection of character comes from "Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing" where the statement of Jesus "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly father is perfect" is commented on. It is full of references to love. I think this is a wonderful and positive way of approaching the subject. Rather than focus on sinful behaviors and overcoming them, the focus is on God's character of love. By beholding we become changed.

Here's a portion of the passage:

 Quote:
God is love. Like rays of light from the sun, love and light and joy flow out from Him to all His creatures. It is His nature to give. His very life is the outflow of unselfish love...

He tells us to be perfect as He is, in the same manner. We are to be centers of light and blessing to our little circle, even as He is to the universe. We have nothing of ourselves, but the light of His love shines upon us, and we are to reflect its brightness. ...

Jesus said, Be perfect as your Father is perfect. If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father... That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law; for "the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul." Psalm 19:7, margin. Through love "the righteousness of the law" will be "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. (MB 77, 78)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Rosangela] #99561
05/23/08 03:53 PM
05/23/08 03:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Mike,

This is how I see things.

We are born with some deficiencies and acquire others through a wrong upbringing. These deficiencies manifest themselves in wrong habits we form before our conversion:

“The human family is under the despotism of custom and false education, of hereditary and cultivated habits.” {SpM 40.2}

"There is no chance to plead for the retention of one idol, for the cherishing of one wrong hereditary or cultivated habit.” {YI, August 24, 1893 par. 4}

“The commandments of God are exceeding broad, and the Lord is not pleased to have His children disorderly, to have their lives marred by defects and their religious experience crippled, their growth in grace dwarfed, because they persist in cherishing hereditary and cultivated deficiencies in wrong habits that will be imitated by others and thus be perpetuated. If the grace of Christ cannot remedy these defects, what then constitutes transformation of character?” {TMK 157.4}

At conversion our mind is changed and renewed. These former habits are renounced, and new habits are formed:
“The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up. ... A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong.” {Mar 237.1,2}

But both these habits and the pleasure we used to derive from them are still registered in our memory. Besides, Satan and the world incite us to resume our former behavior. That’s why we have a daily struggle:

“But because this experience is his [justification], the Christian is not therefore to fold his hands, content with that which has been accomplished for him. He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory.” {AA 476.3}

It’s like being a former addict. There is no permanent “cure.” The permanent cure will happen only at Christ’s coming, when the former habits are erased from our memory.

Rosangela, that was the best post I've ever seen describing the before and after dynamics of rebirth. I only differ from your conclusions in that I believe the origin and source of our internal foes, our unholy lusts and affections, is the flesh body rather than the flesh mind. It is the flesh body that strives for the mastery, that seeks to enslave us. Our memory of our past sins and habits do not constitute internal foes, they are not what strives against us.

Are born again believers, who are actively abiding in Jesus, guilty of sinning because their flesh tempts them from within to be unlike Jesus, or because their flesh wars against the Spirit and mind of the new man, or because their flesh strives for the mastery, strives to enslave them? Does God count them guilty of sinning in any of these cases?

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Mountain Man] #99562
05/23/08 04:26 PM
05/23/08 04:26 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Our memory of our past sins and habits do not constitute internal foes, they are not what strives against us.


Sure they do. There are neural pathways formed by repeated behaviors. It's natural to do a habit, because the pathway has been formed. That's a large part of what makes habits difficult to break.

Not only do our thought patterns make it difficult to do certain things, they make it different to conceive of things in a different way. Jesus alluded to this when He spoke of trying to put new wine into old wine skins. We have a certain world view, and are used to seeing things in a certain way, and our natural tendency is to just assume that truth is just how we perceive reality. Whatever our culture is, our upbringing, our language, all of these things get imposed into our paradigm. These also are "habits" of a sort which are difficult to break.

Consider the Jews, for example. Look how difficult it was to conceive of the Gentiles as being a part of God's kingdom, or of the Messiah coming but not freeing them from their enemies.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Tom] #99576
05/23/08 06:00 PM
05/23/08 06:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, if our memory of our past sins constitute sinful habits that strive to enslave us, that tempt us from within to be unlike Jesus, how, then, do they differ from the lusts of the flesh in the following quote? And, will these memories tempt and harass us throughout eternity (if I remember right you do not believe Jesus blots out our memory of specific sins)?

AH 127
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Tom] #99585
05/23/08 11:32 PM
05/23/08 11:32 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
Regarding self, Christ had a self which had to be denied. He denied His self all the way to the cross. He chose to do not His own will, but the will of His Father.

Christ practiced self-denial both in heaven and during His whole life on earth. But there isn’t a single passage of Ellen White saying that Christ had to subdue and crucify self. The opposite is true. I understand sinful self as being our besetting sins, the defects of our character:

“They did not desire the inconvenience of denying self, of taking up the warfare against besetting sins, and of correcting the defects that marred their characters.” {ST, March 30, 1888 par. 2}

“So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained.” {AA 560.3}

 Quote:
Technology 148 (1999) (stating that while “[t]he gene for greed might help an individual get ahead on.
This looks to be somehow referenced by "Herd Behavior in Designer Genes" (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=170688).
I found this by looking for just a few seconds. I'm sure a determined search could find all sorts of similar things.

A corporation in the US even patented the “gene for greed” in 2000, but it seems these “findings” weren’t true. I think here we can find more recent information:

“In September 2005, the full draft of the chimp’s genome was released and so it became clear, after comparing that information with the human genome, that there are no human-specific genes responsible for the obvious intellectual differences between humans and chimps. Indeed, it seems to be the case that humans have fewer genes than the chimps, and such human genetic losses are behind some typically human features such as lack of body hair or delayed sexual maturation. Moreover, the current evidence indicates there will be no human-specific gene for greed or any other popular sin, nor genes for altruism or other unselfish behavior, and so our human capacities for sinning or self-immolation remain cultural features not based on genetics, thus the search for a naturalistic ethics would remain as a most unnatural project.”

It ends by saying:

“Given that the available scientific evidence indicates the futility of the search for a naturalistic ethics somehow sprouting from Darwinian evolution by natural selection, then we may conclude that moral action is a human feature that has no foundation in genetics and is only determined and conditioned by human will and ethical thinking rooted in human history and culture. Thus, sociobiology and Darwinian fundamentalism notwithstanding, we are free and fully responsible for our deeds.”

 Quote:
So to tie back to the idea that partaking of the divine nature is the restoration of God's nature of love in man, this can be easily seen as corresponding to man's being enabled to get back on the right road.

I completely agree.

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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Mountain Man] #99586
05/24/08 12:09 AM
05/24/08 12:09 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
Tom, if our memory of our past sins constitute sinful habits that strive to enslave us, that tempt us from within to be unlike Jesus, how, then, do they differ from the lusts of the flesh in the following quote? And, will these memories tempt and harass us throughout eternity (if I remember right you do not believe Jesus blots out our memory of specific sins)?

Mike,

Although this was addressed to Tom, I think you won't mind if I express my opinion.
The lusts of the flesh involve indulgence in sin - they are perverted appetites, wrong habits, you cherish.

"The indulgence of lustful appetite wars against the soul; it is a constant hindrance to spiritual advancement. Those who yield to these lower impulses, bear an accusing conscience; and when strait truths are presented, they are ready to take offense. ... If these will crucify fleshly lusts, the arrows of truth will pass harmlessly by them. But while they indulge lustful appetite, and thus cherish their idols, they make themselves a mark for the shafts of truth; if the truth is spoken at all, it must wound them." {CTBH 152.3}

"In the indulgence of hurtful lusts, professed Christians are daily enfeebling their powers, making it impossible to glorify God." {SL 32.4}

As to the memories of sins, perhaps we will have a general idea about them but won't remember the details? Ellen White describes the experience of the children of God at the time of trouble in this way:

"As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. ... But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance" (GC 618-620).


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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Rosangela] #99596
05/24/08 04:32 AM
05/24/08 04:32 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Christ practiced self-denial both in heaven and during His whole life on earth. But there isn’t a single passage of Ellen White saying that Christ had to subdue and crucify self. The opposite is true. I understand sinful self as being our besetting sins, the defects of our character:


 Quote:
Do you wish to obey the Scriptures? "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." There is no such thing as following Christ unless you refuse to gratify inclination and determine to obey God. (MYP 154)


Just as Christ refused to gratify inclination and determined to obey God, that's what we should do.

Anyway, I quoted from Jesus Christ. We don't need to find something from Ellen White to "Amen" what Christ said.

Regarding genetics, I pointed out that these these things are under discussion in scientific circles. One can find arguments both ways. You were saying you weren't aware of their being this idea in Science. There is. A lot. Again, you can find arguments on both sides of the question. It's not easy to know where to draw the line between what's genetic and what's environmental.

In the context of what we've been discussing, I believe Christ's genetic inheritance was as ours is. He followed the working of the law of heredity, and, in doing so, gave us an example to follow in His footsteps.

 Quote:
So to tie back to the idea that partaking of the divine nature is the restoration of God's nature of love in man, this can be easily seen as corresponding to man's being enabled to get back on the right road.

I completely agree.


Good! I believe getting man on the right road involves seeing God as He really is, which is to say like Christ, or, "God is love."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #3 - The Reality of His HUMANITY [Re: Rosangela] #99617
05/25/08 12:06 AM
05/25/08 12:06 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
 Quote:
Tom, if our memory of our past sins constitute sinful habits that strive to enslave us, that tempt us from within to be unlike Jesus, how, then, do they differ from the lusts of the flesh in the following quote? And, will these memories tempt and harass us throughout eternity (if I remember right you do not believe Jesus blots out our memory of specific sins)?

Mike,

Although this was addressed to Tom, I think you won't mind if I express my opinion. The lusts of the flesh involve indulgence in sin - they are perverted appetites, wrong habits, you cherish.

"The indulgence of lustful appetite wars against the soul; it is a constant hindrance to spiritual advancement. Those who yield to these lower impulses, bear an accusing conscience; and when strait truths are presented, they are ready to take offense. ... If these will crucify fleshly lusts, the arrows of truth will pass harmlessly by them. But while they indulge lustful appetite, and thus cherish their idols, they make themselves a mark for the shafts of truth; if the truth is spoken at all, it must wound them." {CTBH 152.3}

"In the indulgence of hurtful lusts, professed Christians are daily enfeebling their powers, making it impossible to glorify God." {SL 32.4}

As to the memories of sins, perhaps we will have a general idea about them but won't remember the details? Ellen White describes the experience of the children of God at the time of trouble in this way:

"As they review the past, their hopes sink; for in their whole lives they can see little good. They are fully conscious of their weakness and unworthiness. Satan endeavors to terrify them with the thought that their cases are hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. ... But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal. Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance" (GC 618-620).

Rosangela, you wrote, "The lusts of the flesh involve indulgence in sin - they are perverted appetites, wrong habits, you cherish." Don't you think the "lusts of the flesh" are internal foes we must learn to recognize and resist as unholy desires and affections? They become character if we repeatedly cherish or act them out, right? Consider the following passages:

 Quote:
CC 248
In the experience of Daniel and his companions we have an instance of the triumph of principle over temptation to indulge the appetite. It shows us that through religious principle young men may triumph over the lusts of the flesh, and remain true to God's requirements, even though it costs them a great sacrifice. {CC 248.2}

7BC 928
The Word makes the proud humble, the perverse meek and contrite, the disobedient obedient. The sinful habits natural to man are interwoven with the daily practice. But the Word cuts away the fleshly lusts. It is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the mind. It divides the joints and marrow, cutting away the lusts of the flesh, making men willing to suffer for their Lord (MS 42, 1901). {7BC 928.10}

4T 155
Thousands would accept the truth if they could do so without denying self, but this class would never build up the cause of God. These would never march out valiantly against the enemy,--the world, the love of self, and the lusts of the flesh,--trusting their divine Leader to give them the victory. {4T 155.4}

TDG 175
We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man?--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

You also wrote, "As to the memories of sins, perhaps we will have a general idea about them but won't remember the details?" I totally agree. In addition to the quote you posted, she also wrote:

3SG 134
They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance. {3SG 134.2}

The scars of Jesus will forever remind us that we once were sinners saved by grace, but, as you say, we will not remember the details. Thank you, Jesus. "The prints of the nails and the spear will then be His glory." {EW 52.2}

GC 674
One reminder alone remains: Our Redeemer will ever bear the marks of His crucifixion. Upon His wounded head, upon His side, His hands and feet, are the only traces of the cruel work that sin has wrought. Says the prophet, beholding Christ in His glory: "He had bright beams coming out of His side: and there was the hiding of His power." Habakkuk 3:4, margin. That pierced side whence flowed the crimson stream that reconciled man to God--there is the Saviour's glory, there "the hiding of His power." "Mighty to save," through the sacrifice of redemption, He was therefore strong to execute justice upon them that despised God's mercy. And the tokens of His humiliation are His highest honor; through the eternal ages the wounds of Calvary will show forth His praise and declare His power. {GC 674.2}

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Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
2nd Quarter 2024 The Great Controversy
by dedication. 05/20/24 12:54 AM
The Gospel According To John
by dedication. 05/16/24 02:17 PM
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 05/06/24 12:18 PM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Rick H. 04/26/24 06:05 PM
Nebuchadnezzar Speaks: The Sunday Law
by dedication. 04/22/24 05:15 PM
Nebuchadnezzar Speaks: Part Two
by TruthinTypes. 04/21/24 11:14 PM
Where is the crises with Climate mandates?
by dedication. 04/21/24 09:25 PM
Iran strikes Israel as War Expands
by dedication. 04/21/24 05:07 PM
What Happens at the End.
by Rick H. 04/20/24 11:39 AM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
What Does EGW Say About Ordination?
by kland. 05/17/24 04:47 PM
Who is the AntiChrist? (Identifying Him)
by Rick H. 05/06/24 12:33 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 05/06/24 12:29 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Rick H. 05/06/24 12:27 PM
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by kland. 05/06/24 10:32 AM
When Does Satan Impersonate Christ?
by Rick H. 05/03/24 10:09 AM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by dedication. 05/02/24 08:58 PM
The Papacy And The American Election
by Rick H. 04/30/24 09:34 AM
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