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Bible Study
03/19/23 04:43 PM
Review of the third vision bringing the pieces together more.

Zechariah 2:1-6
Then I looked up, and there before me was a man with a measuring line in his hand.
(God's standard)

2 I asked, "Where are you going?" He answered me, "To measure Jerusalem,
(the citizen's of God's city) to find out how wide and how long it is."(The size of this little newly re-established kingdom)

3 While the angel
(with the measuring line) who was speaking to me was leaving, another messenger (who appears to be Jesus, Himself) came to meet him

4 and said to him: "Run, tell that young man, 'Jerusalem will be a city without walls
(without boundaries limiting it's size) because of the great number of people and animals in it. (though seemingly very small now, God's plan was for it to be exceedingly great)

5 And I myself
(Jesus Himself) will be a wall of fire around it,' declares the Lord, 'and I will be its glory within. (God's plan was to be present within, to dwell with them, and this would enable it to be a holy, prosperous, thriving in goodness and grace, safe kingdom. As long as the people glorified and honored Him, worshipping Him, His glory would be within, for God does not force His presence upon anyone.)

6 Ho, ho,
(listen and come forth), and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: (leave the Babylonian countries) for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, (God's people had been exiled and scattered in these heathen countries) saith the LORD.

2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
(Come out of Babylon, my people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev. 18:4-5)

2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory has he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: (By scattering His people, God's truth had been carried by faithful one's to these nations, His glory had been sent and heard by these nations, but they had abused His people, though allowed to take them as captives had far exceeding in their mistreatment of them)
for he that touches you touches the apple of his eye.
2:9 For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.
{God's people are very precious to Him, God will vindicate them, and punish the transgressions of the oppressors)
2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
(Rejoice in the Lord, oh my people, and again I say rejoice, God desires to dwell with His people, and fill them with goodness, happiness, and truth/ What a glorious reason for rejoicing!)

2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: {The nations around will see and want to be part of this good and glorious kingdom, God's kingdom is to grow because people see it's goodness and long for God's grace) and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. {Yet this could only happen if they allowed the LORD to dwell in their midst as their Savior and lord.)

As a physical kingdom Judah failed to surrender self to the refining and uplifting grace of God, and when Jesus Himself came "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:11.

Christ had come to earth to reveal the principles of the kingdom of heaven. His character as Saviour and Life-giver was demonstrated in His life, in His teachings, in His miracles, at that point they could still have accepted Him and followed Him as their Lord and Savior, but in their pride the Jews as a nation rejected the One who was life and offering them salvation. How different it would have been had the priests and rulers accepted Him. They wanted a physical kingdom of greatness, but Christ's kingdom was one of character and grace, and the power of the Holy Spirit to reveal the righteousness of God to the nations.

Not all of Israel rejected Christ. There was a remnant that not only fully accepted and believed on Him, but also went forth into all the known world as witnesses of His true kingdom, thus the Christian church was born. But the Christian church in the following decades and centuries, in a large measure followed the failures of the Israelites, and Revelation reveals that only a remnant accept God's commandments and testimony of Jesus and follow the Lamb where ever He leads. These don't look to old Jerusalem, but like Abraham look for the heavenly city whose builder and maker is God.

(Heb. 11:10 &16) By faith Abraham.... looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. .... Now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he has prepared for them a city.

Galatians 4:25-26 For this... Jerusalem which now is, is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

And we seek to have written upon our foreheads the ID of the heavenly Kingdom:

Rev. 3:12 "I will write upon him, the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Today, we need to respond to Jesus, who will develop the qualities of His kingdom in our lives, as we surrender to Him; in preparation for the day when he will take us to the glorious kingdom of New Jerusalem.
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Life Of Christ
03/19/23 04:27 AM
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

How can one explain spiritual things? Spiritual things are heavenly things that people don't fully understand but try to illustrate with earthly things in an attempt to understand them. Yet earthly things fall short of explaining heavenly things. It is true that to be perfectly acquainted with the concerns of a place, it is necessary for a person to be, or have been at that place..

Who has ever experienced these heavenly things so they can explain them to us earthlings, teaching and showing us the deep things of God. Who can now explain them in their full and true meaning?
Only the Son of man!
Only the One Who was in the beginning with God, and was God and was in the beginning with God! And became flesh to dwell with mankind. (John 1:1,14)

And it is His Spirit,
for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God...Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1Cor. 2:10,12) he will guide you into all truth: ..He shall glorify me (the Son of Man as well as the Son of God): for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you. John 16:13-14)

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Bible Study
03/16/23 03:27 PM
When we look at the progression of the record of Revelation, the overview pattern gives us a better understanding of the prophecy.

To begin with, Jesus speaks to His beloved churches about a qualification to enter the New Jerusalem in heaven. People entering the Seven Churches must heed the vital message and be an overcomer because God's investigative judgment in heaven's throne room is the present reality. The heavenly beings consent to seal those who are found worthy. As Jesus breaks each seal of the seven-sealed book, God's judgment has progressed through historical time since the time of the cross of Jesus up to the present in the Seven Seals.

The Seven Churches(Ch. 1-3)=> Investigative Judgment (Ch. 4-5) => The Seven Seals (Ch. 6-7).

Those sealed saints sound alarms to the world to repent and be saved via the Seven Trumpets (Ch. 8-11), and in the call, Satan's identity becomes unmasked (Ch. 12-14). The earth's inhabitants hear the indispensable truth of Satan and choose the side of their allegiance to whom they want to worship. The Seven Plagues (Ch. 15-16) fall, and spiritual Babylon collapses (Ch. 17-18).

The Seven Trumpets (Ch. 8-11) => Satan's ID unmasked (Ch. 12-14) =>
The Seven Plagues (Ch. 15-16) => spiritual Babylon collapses (Ch. 17-18).

The next event is the Second Coming of Jesus which happens in Chapter 19, and the millennium of the judicial review (Ch. 20) begins in heaven for the redeemed saints.

The New Jerusalem comes down to the earth (Ch. 21), and the church of the redeemed saints begins the eternal kingdom age (Ch. 22).

Second Coming (Ch. 19) => Judgment review (Ch. 20) => New Jerusalem comes down to earth (Ch. 21) => saints shall reign for ever and ever (Ch. 22).
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Bible Study
03/14/23 05:17 PM
The difference between the "mark" and the "seal".

Both are based on the premise that the one we give our allegiance to, we obey. Obedience is not optional on either side.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The beast FORCES people to obey, whether they want to or not. It is not obedience from a transformed heart and mind. He seeks allegiance BY FORCE. If everyone can be corralled into obedience he feels in control.

God wants obedience from a transformed mind and heart that responds to His goodness, saving grace and love, that wants to give Him glory, and doesn't want to give or show any allegiance to the enemy.

Both lead to obedience.
but one is only a mark of compliance, an outward bowing to the enforced demands while the heart isn't really submitted.
the other is loving commitment of the heart and mind, sealed "to belong to HIM, totally, lovingly" and long to do His will in everything.

The seal is not ONLY the Sabbath, though the Sabbath is the sign, and very much part of the seal.
Yet a person who outwardly stops work on the Sabbath and attends worship services without his heart and mind surrendered to God, is not sealed and will in all probability switch when the pressure is applied.
To be sealed means to give our complete allegiance to our Redeemer and Savior, Jesus Christ, which leads to a life of complete obedience.

And it is only through the power of the Holy Spirit and the righteousness of Christ accepted in our lives that this transformation can take place.
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Endtime Events
03/12/23 04:23 PM
Very interesting information, Prodigal. Spend several hours listening yesterday to the various presentations, yes they were amicably, presenting DIFFERING views, but it was interesting to hear the differing logic they used to support their views.

Yes, this one especially was interesting
Pastor Roosenberg's presentation beginning at the 2:05:38 mark. https://www.youtube.com/live/Lr6wLJBt9n8?feature=share

His view puts a lot more meaning showing a bigger picture of the battle being fought throughout history, while most of the others were more interested in identifying every detail. (Though the details need to fit the picture)

The biggest challenge is how to relate this vision to understanding more about the great battle being fought against Jesus Christ, and His redemption plan for the inhabitants of the earth.
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What Others Believe
03/07/23 09:50 PM
Protestantism depicted in the seven churches.
These churches represent the different stages of the church throughout history.
But even though they have a significant time in history, we must not think the previous church disappears when the next church begins. We will find the different stages continuing though they may no longer be the prominent one for that time.
There is however, one exception, one of the churches dies.

Ephesus represents the apostolic church
Smyrna represents the persecuted church
Pergamos represents the church accepted by Imperial Rome (accepted/supported by government)
Thyatira represents the papal controlled church
Sardis represents the reformation or protestant church

And it is Sardis we need to look at as we discuss the death of Protestantism.

Jezebel, the scarlet woman of Thyatira, and Revelation 17, was given time by God to repent, but she would not (Rev. 2:21). To keep faith and truth alive the Lord had to raise up a new movement. The corrupt condition of the corporate body of Thyatira had existed for more than nine hundred years before the Reformation.

Sardis represents the Protestant Reformation. They pulled away and became separate and distinct from Jezebel and her corruptions. Although Jezebel continues on, the woman represents the papal corrupted religion which is no longer a light for the gospel, or testimony for God in the earth, yet she is still alive, and will come back to power in the time of the end (Rev. 17}

The Protestant Reformation was God working anew to bring back the gospel by His Spirit and once again offer salvation and righteousness by faith to the people.
. Sardis represents the time after the Reformation as well, showing what happens to Protestantism right up to our time.

Revelation 3:1-6

And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. (2) Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. (3) Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. (4) You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. (5) He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
(6) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Protestantism is dying. As a movement it is DEAD. But there are still a few within Protestantism who are faithful, whose names are in the book of life.

Thyatira is the total corruption of the original message and blessings given to the Ephesus church, while Sardis was given the responsibility to bring back life and light of the gospel, and the blessings of God. But Sardis is judged by God as spiritually dead, only individual faithful ones are judged as worthy and dressed in white. Both churches have a faithful remnant that God distinctly marks and acknowledges (Rev. 2:24, 3:4)

But Sardis itself is declared as dead, and Protestants have now also declared Protestantism to be dead.

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Natural Health
03/04/23 11:48 PM
Yes, Elijah was fed by the ravens, which is different Elijah than eating the ravens.
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Endtime Events
03/04/23 12:38 PM
Walter Veith discusses the trials we will face and how we are to stand for Truth as the return of Christ rapidly approaches.


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Adult Sabbath School
02/25/23 05:06 AM
The purpose of our jobs should not be only to make money to take care of our living expenses, our jobs should also be opportunities to share our faith with fellow workers and/or customers.

One way to share, is simply to do good, fair and honest, above board, business in every transaction.
There is nothing that turns community folk off faster. than to deal with someone who claims to be a Christian, or an Adventist, who then goes and takes advantage, or engages in questionable business deals with clients.
Our lives are a powerful witness, either for, or against the faith we profess to hold.
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Bible Study
02/21/23 05:13 PM
Problems of a purely exegetical approach to interpreting prophecies.

Thoughts taken from Dr. Alberto Treiyer review
former member of the Daniel and Revelation Committee,

Is it wise to throw the interpretative foundation of our church in prophetic matters under pretention, thinking we will "move forward" by casting of the anchor points, especially when there is no exegetical, theological or historical reason to do that?

Yet, we have a few well known Adventists who are seeking to do just that. They believe that Uriah Smith took from Barnes, a protestant interpreter of Revelation the idea of prophetic time in the formula "the hour, day, month and year" in Rev. 9:15 They believe, that modern exegesis has discarded that possibility, and that somehow Adventism needs to do the same. However, before Barnes, the majority of the Reformers of the last part of the Middle Ages and during the first part of the 19th century, understood that text in a prophetic dimension of day per year.

Under the influence of French enlightenment and succeeding Biblical critical movement, with the help of the counter Reformation, the historical approach was pushed aside and was eliminated by most of the interpreters of Revelation. On what basis? On no real foundation, because the exegetical criticism employed by those interpreters lacks foundation.

Sadly it seems the Adventist professors leaning away from the historicist approach didn't first read the Master thesis of Jon Stefansson, nor the two exegetical studies on Rev. 9:15 written by Dr. Tarsee Lee, a professor of theology, and many other historical studies under taken in the University of Andrews, prepared in the historical dimension and under the prophetic principles that characterize us as a people established on the divine inspiration traced through prophetic, historicistic dimension.

Stefinsson shows that if the apostle would have intended Rev. 9:15 to refer to a point in time and not to a period of time, he would have written simply that the powers were prepared "for the hour". Enlarging the time which only supposedly meant the hour it was to begin, without any clues as to the year, month or day in which that hour occurred, would be totally pointless.

Lee wrote an article of five pages entitled "Revelation 9"15 and the limits of Greek Syntax, (Journal of Adventist Theological Society 1997) He proves there is no exegetical foundation to deny a prophetic period of time by this expression , Hour, day, month, and year.

What is, then the presumption of those who consider themselves "exegetes" in our church, and who are trying to overthrow an interpretation that supports the Spirit of Prophecy?

In the confrontation that we had in 3 ABN on the trumpets, I could see my colleague Jon Paulien seated at my left hand, repeating again and again that we have to go to the Bible and remain in the Bible. This sounded good and even orthodox. But, in what context did he say this?
At any time when historical dates were introduced to confirm the prophetic fulfillment of the trumpets. It was stated that this was not in the Bible. They even criticized a lady who wrote "history has assigned a beginning date" (for the 70 years), and he add "not Scripture."

Now wait a minute: Where do we obtain the years 508, 538, and
1798 ? Those dates are given by history, not by Scripture.

This is the background of those who insist in spiritualizing the content of the trumpets. As a matter of fact, how will they convince others that they should not also spiritualize the apocalyptic beasts of Daniel and Revelation, and the other prophecies of Daniel and Revelation?
Are they prophesizing real events and real kingdoms or is it just an allegory?

May this kind of purely exegetical approach be considered historicist? No way! This is an empty idealism, because it does not make the heart to burn with the history of its fulfillment (see Luke 24:32).

Paulien wrote a seminar on Revelation that was published in Australia, but which did not work because, according to evangelists over there, people need to see in history how those prophecies were fulfilled.
History gives the evidence that prophecy is sure, it gets fulfilled, if this were not so, the apostles would not have been able to say like Jesus, "today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing" (Luke 4:21).

Problems of a purely exegetical approach.
Exegesis is good in its role of understanding meaning of words and symbols, it opens windows for more than one possibility that history has to fill. Yet at this point the other sciences need to be considered, namely, theology and history.
We need theology to give us the broader picture as to where things fit in the grand everlasting covenant of the gospel. A right theology offers biblical guidelines to find the purpose of the prophecy, and under what contextual history should its fulfillment be placed. For instance, Protestants rightly understood in former centuries that the trumpets came as judgments of God against Rome , because this was the last apocalyptic empire depicted by Daniel and Revelation.
They saw the trumpets as symbolic of real events, The symbolism found in the trumpets led them not to spiritualize their fulfillment, but to place it in the right time and understand the purpose as to why God sent, or allowed them to take place. While the first six trumpets were partial judgments (a third), only the last and seventh trumpet was expected to be definitive in connection with the coming of the Lord (Rev 11:18) when God's wrath would be outpoured in the seven plagues, 16:1)
Theology and history have to work together to determine what exegetical possibility is valuable. It is necessary to understand God's plan and purpose in the story of Redemption, and this is what systematic theology intends to do.
Historicism by itself can't stand alone, either, without understanding theology God can appear as vindictive, cruel, rather than working for the salvation of people.

.But if we do not resort to history, and base our interpretation purely on exegetical, chiastic, grammatical approach the interpretation goes nowhere in prophetic matters.
It leads to the interpretative chaos and uncertainty that we find in our church today in these
when it comes to prophecy.

So where is this all going?

We saw some of our scholars start with the decision to pull the trumpets out of the historicist method of interpretation to end the historicist interpretation for the trumpets..
But this leads to departing from historicism in the rest of the Bible. They do not realize, at the beginning, that in order to destroy the historicist interpretation of Rev 9, they resort to the same kind of arguments employed by others to destroy their historicist approach in the rest of the prophetic Biblical passages.

Once the foundational stones are ripped out from underneath a building, the whole building starts to totter.
This is why J?n Stef?nsson answers many criticisms against the historical dates of the trumpets realizing that the same methods used to destroy the historicist interpretation for the trumpets will also destroy the whole prophetic foundation in all of Daniel and Revelation.

Those who want to find historical and biblical proofs to deny the prophetic fulfillment, will find them. Those who want to find historical and biblical proofs to confirm the prophetic fulfillment, will also find them. Because the apocalyptic prophecies have a similar purpose of the parables, which many could understand, but others who hardened their hearts will not understand.(Matt 13:14-15).

Counterfeit Prophecy

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Bible Study
02/20/23 03:18 AM
I just read dedication's Zechariah's eight visions. May I strongly recommend them for your study. I don't want to interrupt his thread, but I had commented on Zechariah and Revelation, especially Revelation 1:7. I also mentioned that the Anchor Bible commentary on Haggai and the first part of Zechariah were written by two who I have come to appreciate and respect over the years, Eric and Carol Meyers.

This made me also want to comment on what I have found useful in helping to study the book of Revelation. I did not want to interrupt the study of Zechariah by sharing these there:

1. Have an Adventist background to the book of Revelation. I strongly recommend Maxwell's "God Cares, Volume 2"

2. George MacCready Price "The Time of the End" probably the best Adventist commentary on Revelation. https://www.amazon.com/Time-End-George-McCready-Price/dp/B093RTJP1B

3. Get a copy of the "Last Day Events Seminar" from the 1976 Southern New England Campmeeting. I know this is hard to get, but there are recordings floating around.

4. Dr. Richard Nies Eschatology. http://www.pineknoll.org/audio-resources?media_group=RNESCHATOLOGY&show_dropdown=0 This is easier to get than the campmeeting recordings listed above. Dr. Nies has some similar views and goes into more detail, but he also makes some mistakes from tradition that the SNE campmeeting tapes correct: one example is in Revelation it talks about about the plagues falling in a day and in an hour. Dr. Nies ends up saying that he understands this as being that Satan wants a year for the plagues, but God only limits him to two weeks. The SNE campmeeting tapes points out that this is just a common idem of the time that Revelation was written to simply mean "A short time" no more and no less.

5. Sigve Tonstad's commentary on Revelation (Paideia: Commentaries on the New Testament)

6 and 7. While the above resources are all from a Seventh-day Adventist perspective, there are two more that have impressed me, both by a Lutheran: Craig R. Koester They are the Anchor Bible Commentary on Revelation, the other is a lecture program he gave on The Great Courses by the Learning Company: https://www.wondrium.com/the-apocalypse-controversies-and-meaning-in-western-history They have their courses go on sale at different times of the year, otherwise they have outrages prices. Look for the sale prices where it is only something like $69.00 or less. (By the way his Reading Biblical Literature: Genesis to Revelation are also worth your time.)

Now, another non-Adventist scholar, Craig Keener, I listened to a series he has on Revelation. They are not bad but not nearly as good as the above. But one point he made is outstanding and had very much captivated me. What he said about being lukewarm and how God wishes we were either hot or cold. I had understood this to mean, and I've heard sermons with the same misunderstanding, to think that God wants us to either be hot, on fire for Him, or to be cold, not interested and to just do our own thing. Keener points out that the context of this passage is water. Hot water, either in drinks such as teas (he included coffee) or hot baths help us to relax after working hard, or gives us a break from work, or prepares us in the morning to get ready to work. Cold water, again as in baths and cold drinks, a cup of cold water, helps us invigorate us to carry on the work and to deal with the heat of the day. Thus Keener argues and convinced me that what God is calling to the church of Laodicea to not be lukewarm, blah, to use the gifts that God gave us to either help others get their well deserved rest and prepare for the next tasks, or to help to bear the burdens of the day. Let God use us to be like a hot bath with a hot drink at the end of a day, or a hot drink at the start of the day, or a coffee break during the day, or be like a invigorating cold drink, or cold damp cloth or cold shower/bath to give the strength for the job.
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Bible Study
02/20/23 01:07 AM
dedication, WOW!!!! Excellent study. I'll be using these posts. Listening to the professors at AUC helped me to see this, and Fleming's lecture about the death of Jesus and the Jews, giving the historical context of the Sadducee courts within the Sanhedrin, and it's connection to the 24 Elders even made it clearer.

Other suggestions I hear some may be held as well as the above, but most of what I hear seems to be speculation.

The 4 living beasts is God's church in exodus/exile. God actively communicates with with His church on earth through the testimony of the 12 tribes (the TANAK) and the testimony of the 12 apostles. As we consistently study the Bible, the Holy Spirit will point out things that we will need to know at the time we need to know it. And we will learn it from the pages of scripture.
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Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
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