Tom I have read the "whole" and it is NOT out of context. Perhaps you need to read it again.

OK Debbie, who were the "infidel authors" to which she refered? What did each of them have in common?

Tom

For a long time now there has been a movement to bring all Christian Churches together into one. After all we were warned by Ellen White that churches would unite on points they have in common and wouldnt we realize that they will also unite on PRACTICES they have in common?

Rv:17:13: These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The Catholic Church has something call "Inculturation" and "Acculturation". Malachi Martin explains Inculturation like this:

"The idea was to adapt so severely to the culture of the alien (one who was not a catholic)that the missionary would aquire the mind of that culture, and would revamp both doctrine and moral practice to fit that alien culture."

This actually means that the Jeuit would try to be as much like the people in the particular church or group that he was seeking to win over to his side as he could, and all the while, hw would be sneaking in catholic doctrines little by little until that church became Catholic in their thinking without even realizing the change. This is one of the tactics that the Jesuits are notorious for.

And then there is another tactic that the Roman Catholic Church uses called "Acculturation". This mean to adapt the practices of your own church -such as your worship format- to the practices of the different cultures that you are seeking to win over to Catholicism.

In this way, they believe, people will begin to feel more "comfortable" with the Catholic Church and perhaps eventually come over to it. For instance, Malachi Martin tells of how in some Catholic gatherings they now serve communion wine in paper cups and have coffee afterwards for socializing. Their bands play blues music- using trombones, kazoos, saxaphones and top it off with drums to add a rhythm foundation. Malachi Martin,The Encounter.


There has been for quite a time now, something called the "Celebration" Movement, which has come into many Chirstian Churhes, and the idea is to have a "traditional" church service, and then also have a "celebration" service where everybody claps and sways and generally acts like Pentecostals. Few know that this movement originated in the Catholic Church. And even fewer know that this originated even before that from witchcraft.

In witchcraft, EVERYTHING is called a "celebration of life". (a term you hear much in Christian Churches now). The reason they regard every thing a celebration is because they are pantheistic in their beliefs and believe God is IN everything... Its where the Catholic Church got its idea of "community". You can go to my website at http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org and click on the Catholic button and read a little about this pantheism in the catholic church... which is just spiritualism.

The Catholics had a Jesuit named Teilhard de Chardin and during the Vatican II they went by Teilhard's teachings of "spiritual evolution". This means that everything in the world is "god" (a pantheistic force in all things) and that eventually everything is now going back into "god"... all humanity is "God".. and will evolve into "oneness" or otherwise known as "The Omega Christ".

At any rate, what we are seeing now is... Roman Catholicism not only joining hands with Protestantism but also with Spiritualism and the world. (their religion has always been of pagan origin but now they are making strides towards making a big deal of publically accepting things like Islam and everything under the sun.)

This is one major way that they will all become "of one mind". Rv:17:13: These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Unfortunately, too many Protestants have no real idea what's going on and they view the whole thing as "being loving" verses "being like a Pharisee and thinking you are better than other religions and so being too afraid to accept and adopt their practices".

The idea is that true Biblical Faith is being watered down bit by bit till it becomes more and more difficult to distinguish a Christian from a worldly person, and not only that but more and more difficult to distinguish a Protestant from a Catholic.

It's really too bad and too sad that so many, even those in prominent church positions will muddy up the issues and just act (empahsis on the word "act") as if it were a matter of preference or a matter of "can't we just act like we are happy in church and clap and lift our hands" when that really isnt the issue at all.

Like I said before, For a long time now there has been a movement to bring all Christian Churches together into one. After all we were warned by Ellen White that churches would unite on points they have in common and wouldnt we realize that they will also unite on PRACTICES they have in common? we really ought to be able to see that and recognize that is what's happening.

...and I REALLY dont believe that Ellen White consulted Babylonian authors on how to conduct business in the 7th Day Adventist church. There's a big difference between her using writings for quotation or educational purposes and using them to consult on how to conduct worship services. (as if everyone doesnt already realize that).

The catholic belief is that celebration means everybody doing the same thing together... thats what Thomas Merton the Monk says. Thats why Catholicism always uses the term "Community". You see if everybody is doing the same thing together as one... it must be "God" flowing through everyone, so they must infiltrate the Protestant Churches with this celebration movement so we are all doing the same thing "as one". Celebration movement uses lots of music, drums, and other "let it all hang out" type stuff.

A Catholic priest named Andrew Greeley tells a story of how things have changed for the Catholic Church, for the purpose of enlarging their congregations:

"In many new Catholic churches , statues, the stations, and the stained glass windows have either been swept away or reduced to diagrams or abstractions that would not offend even the most fundamental Protestant. Reverence and awe have been replaced by often cloying informality; solemnity by 'letting it all hang out' manners. Great music has been replaced by bad psuedo-folk" music... As a part of the final acculturation into American life, it became appropriate to abandon the whole mess, to... eliminate the mysteries and medals, the invocations and the pieties, the blessings and the rosaries, the May crownings and the mumbo jumbo." How to Save the Catholic Church, pg 70,71

And you see now in some Protestant churches they are doing the stations of the cross, and even using rosaries... etc.


The idea is to make protestant churches more catholic and catholic churches more protestant and all the churches more pentecostal... so that it becomes more and more difficult to tell the difference between them. Then finally to bring all to the catholic church after there is no more protest against the differences. Sadly people miss the whole thing and sit argueing about whether or not it is "ok" to lift hands or clap in church.

Kind of like "fiddling while Rome Burns"... or us fiddling and argueing about non-relevant issues, while all the while Rome accomplishing what she wanted to and is infiltrating us with these pentecostal practices... to unite us all on common points of both doctrine and practices in the church. and there's the charismatic movement in the catholic church.

Websters: Infidel--"One who is not a Christian or opposes Christianity, an unbeliever in respect to a particular religion, one who acknowledges no religious belief, a disbeliever in something specified or understood."

FE 92-94 There is danger in reading from infidel authors

CT 424 Infidel authors must not be used in SDA schools

8T 311 SDA's do not need to seek knowledge from infidel authors

CT 135-6 We are to be constantly onguard against reading of infidel authors

6T 166 Evil results of use of infidel authors in education

CT 135 Infidel authors are inspired by Satan

Babylon

2 SM 118 "The prophet says, "I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils" (Rev 18:1,2). This is the same message that was given by the second angel. Babyon is fallen, "because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14:8). What is that wine?--Her false doctrines. She has given to the world a false sabbath instead of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and has repeated the falsehood that Satan first told to Eve in Eden--the natural immortality of the soul. Many kindred errors she has spread far and wide, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

TM 61-2 "It is our individual duty to walk humbly with God. We are not to seek any strange, new message. We are not to think that the chosen ones of God who are trying to walk in the light compose Babylon. The fallen denominational churches are Babylon. Babylon has been fostering poisonous doctrines , the wine of error. This wine of error is made up of false doctrines, such as the natural immortality of the soul, the eternal torment of the wicked, the denial of the pre-existence of Christ prior to His birth in Bethlehem, and advocating and exalting the first day of the week above God's holy and sanctified day. These and kindred errors are presented to the world by the various churches, and thus the Scriptures are fulfilled that say, "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." It is a wrath which is created by false doctrines, and when kings and presidents drink this wine of the wrath of her fornication, they are stirring with anger against those who will not come into harmony with the false and satanic heresies which exalt the false sabbath, and lead men to trample underfoot God's memorial..."

Actually, we need to start another thread if this is a topic members want to discuss.

Debbie,

This need not be a prolonged part of this discussion. It isn't all that complicated. The dictionary definition is a good start. However, look carefully at the two EGW quotes you just posted, including the entire context of each. Does EGW use the phrase "infidel authors" in either of them? If you read the entire passages of the 50 or so places where EGW is using that phrase, can you honestly say that she is on the same topic as the two quotes you have just posted?

You still have not identified a specific infidel author that EGW was referring to. If you did in fact do so you would see how different the topic of the "infidel author" passages really is from the "kindred errors" of the fallen churches of Babylon passages. Your error could lead to a quite different understanding of prophecy that the traditional Adventist understanding of Babylon.

Tom

Debbie,
I know there is a topic created on occultism somewhere here on MSDAOL, and I believe that there may be one on celebrations. Actully I think that one is about the willow creek model.
You know just as a side note, we have been having an awesome harvest of souls coming into the church without having to use rock music, no entertainment as in drama, acting out, no risk warren (yes I typed risk) false doctrines and cozy sugar coated hype, and hey could you even believe that no one raises their hands to "receive" the Holy Spirit yet the "proof is in the pudding" and we have the recipe! People are led to Christ by His word, and being converted, not by "oh this church was so cool, they had a rock band, and people were raising their hands. It was so spirit filled".. I believe that I can get the same for $5 at the matinee up the street, and for a few dollars more it includes a hot dog and a coke.
Straight out Bible based Truths leading people to Christ is what its about. I am glad that the Bible is alive and does not need aids, but that people will by hearing His word receive faith, and come to repent and be saved. if God can use a rooster to prach a sermon He can use you to reach those who do not know Christ with the simplicity and piety of using The Bible, an investment which will result in saving your skin, and untold riches in heaven. Dont wait, but act now!
God Bless,
Will

EWs definition of an infidel author seems to be anyone who writes books which undermines the authority of God and the bible, be it of whatever subject, from theology to mythology and fairy tales. But it would seem this is mostly in the context of autors of school literature, geology is mentioned but I would guess that today she would have written biology instead if one was to be singled out.

/Thomas

quote:

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Cold philosophical speculations, and scientific research in which God is not acknowledged, are a positive injury. And the evil is aggravated, when, as is often the case, books placed in the hands of the young, accepted as authority, and depended upon in their education, are from authors avowedly infidel. Throughout all the thoughts presented by these men, their poisonous sentiments are interwoven. The study of such books is like handling black coals; a student cannot be undefiled in mind who thinks along the line of skepticism. {SpTEd 55.1}

The authors of these books, which have sowed the seeds of doubt and infidelity broadcast over the world, have been under the training of the great enemy of God and man, the acknowledged head of principalities and powers, the ruler of the darkness of this world. The word that God has spoken concerning them is, They "became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools;" "because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful." They rejected divine truth in its simplicity and purity for the wisdom of this world. Whenever books by these infidel authors are given the precedence, and the word of God is made secondary, a class of students will be sent out of the schools no better fitted for the service of God than they were before they received their education. {SpTEd 55.2}

It is not for want of evidence that men doubt divine truth; they are not infidels through ignorance of the character of the word of God. But through sin the whole human organism is deranged; the mind is perverted; the imagination
56
corrupted. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet slide imperceptibly into sin. And so it is that many hate the Bible. Some would not care if there was not a Bible in the world. When the Son of God was on trial, the Jews cried out, 'Away with him, crucify him," because his pure life and holy teaching convicted them of sin and condemned them; and for the same reason, many in their hearts cry out against the word of God. Many, even of the children and youth, have learned to love sin; they hate reflection, and the thought of God is a sting to their conscience. It is because the human heart is inclined to evil that it is so dangerous to sow the seeds of skepticism in young minds. {SpTEd 55.3}

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quote:

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Half-hearted Christians are worse than infidels; for their deceptive words and non-committal position may lead many astray. The infidel shows his colors. The luke-warm Christian deceives both parties. He is neither a good worldling nor a good Christian. Satan uses him to do a work that no one else can do. {SpM 260.2}

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Tom, the principle of going to the world for theology or to Babylon, of going to Egypt or gods of Ekron, or infidel authors....all have a common thread. God has warned us to stay away from these things which lead to watering down the distinct truths of the Bible.

EW 124 "If God has any new light to communicate, He will let His chosen and beloved understand it, without their going to have their minds enlightened by hearing those who are in darkness and error. I was shown the necessity of those who believe that we are having the last message of mercy, being separate from those who are daily imbibing new errors. I saw that neither young nor old should attend their meetings; for it is wrong to thus encourage them while they teach error that is a deadly poison to the soul and teach for doctrines the commandments of men."

Debbie,

I would agree that there is a common thread, just as there is a common thread in all things in opposition to God's way or sin. But threads are very thin, break easily and don't hold much weight.

Thomas has given some very significant quotes for comparison and the very last one is most telling of what EGW was talking about and the precise distinction that is what I believe to be the error of your liberal connection of two different topics. Read it again. "The infidel shows his colors." The errors of Babylon are that of a clever counterfeiter attempting to deceive, yes even the saints, by diluting and corrupting faith and making the counterfeit appear as the real thing. It's the confusion of empty or false religion.

Apply the definition of "infidel" and what EGW has said should leave no doubt that she is talking about writers, scholars, philosophers who not only have no regard for Judeo-Christian teaching, but were in fact openly hostile to it. They make no pretense of religion and were openly anti-religious.

The problem that EGW was addressing was the forces within society and especially within Adventism that wanted the education of our youth to pattern the great secular universities that actively encouraged study and reading of the writings of the great minds of the day and from history. The 18th century and well into the 19th Century was the Age of Enlightenment when secularism, humanism and intellectualism dominated philosophy and education. It was the Age of Reason. The "great" minds of philosophy most frequently were agnostic at best and hostile atheists at worst. They were most frequently harshly critical of religion and the Bible. And there were many in America who were sensitive to being perceived as lagging behind Europe intellectually and in matters of education and pushed such ideas. So these ideas were of great currency in EGW's time.

Given that historical reality, here are few of the "infidel authors" that EGW could have had in mind - Locke, Hume, Voltaire, Rousseau, Kant, and going back to the classics of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle. The philosophy of Karl Marx was gaining much attention after he and Engels wrote the "Communist Manifesto" in 1848. Charles Darwin published "Origin of the Species" in 1859.

There was a growing American secularist movement supportive of these intellectual and "scientific" free-thought philosophies. They proudly called themselves "freethinkers". (See "Freethinkers - A History of American Secularism" by Susan Jacoby.) A prominent number of the founding fathers of our country were avowed deists and very skeptical of organized religion. Thomas Paine "vociferously rejected Judeo-Christian tenets and scriptures" and his "Age of Reason" was "a no-hold's-barred attack on the veracity of the Bible." An American intellectual known as that "Great Agnostic" was a contemporary of EGW who drew large crowds to hear his denunciation of the Bible and religion. The name of his biography is "American Infidel: Robert G. Ingersoll".

Yes, a common thread perhaps, but a world of obvious difference.

Tom

[ April 25, 2005, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Tom Wetmore ]