What makes a person "live without sin?"

How could any human, be "like Jesus?"

What does the Bible mean, when it talks about the helpless human agent, "being like Jesus?"

I sense that you are seeing a point, that perhaps we have not yet caught the drift of? If true; can you explain it a bit?

Also; how would you explain Isa. 58:8, when it says: "thy righteousness shall go before thee."

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

Two more questions:

How long have you been dead? (Rom.7:4).
How long have you been alive? (Rom.6:11).

Is it true that a Christian is both "dead" and "alive" at the same time?

What makes a person "live without sin?" - Not what, but Who. It is the Spirit of God who empowers us to experience the promise - Go, and sin no more.

Philippians
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

2 Peter
2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations...

Luke
1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Philippians
4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

How could any human, be "like Jesus?" - The answer to this question shares the same Scripture promises quoted above. We can imitate not equal Jesus.

Matthew
10:24 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.
10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord.

SD 154.3 "Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character."

TMK 265.2 "Christ is our pattern, the perfect and holy example that has been given us to follow. We can never equal the Pattern, but we may imitate and resemble it according to our ability. When we fall, all helpless, suffering in consequence of our realization of the sinfulness of sin; when we humble ourselves before God, afflicting our souls by true repentance and contrition; when we offer our fervent prayers to God in the name of Christ; we shall as surely be received by the Father as we sincerely make a complete surrender of our all to God. We should realize in our inmost soul that all our efforts in and of ourselves will be utterly worthless, for it is only in the name and strength of the Conqueror that we shall be overcomers."

What does the Bible mean, when it talks about the helpless human agent, "being like Jesus?" - Fortunately experiencing the promises of perfection do not depend upon our weaknessess or even our strengths. Our ability to overcome and imitate the lovely character of Christ is made possible entirely by the indwelling Spirit of God. We can be like Jesus in character not in essence, for He is also God and we are not.

I sense that you are seeing a point, that perhaps we have not yet caught the drift of? If true; can you explain it a bit? - I think the main point I'm trying to get across is that a sinner is someone who sins and a saint is someone who is experiencing the promises of God. And to say that someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man is a sinner is too confusing and even insults the promises of God.

Also; how would you explain Isa. 58:8, when it says: "thy righteousness shall go before thee." - I believe this passage is similar to:

Revelation
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The imparted righteousness of Christ is a reality, not just some legal wrangling that God waves His magic wand over.

1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he {Jesus} is righteous.

The transformation of character we experience as God works His miracle upon us through His victory promises is real and intrinsic not imaginary or forensic. We truly experience righteousness. And as such God can refer to it as our righteousness. It is unique to our special gifts, talents and personality.

We are not clons of Christ, but rather we are Christlike according to our singular uniqueness, a new and improved person. And this new blend of righteousness, something that has never been seen before in the history of mankind, goes before us like the hearld of God's love to bless others in it's wake.

How long have you been dead? (Rom.7:4). How long have you been alive? (Rom.6:11). - By the grace of God I crucified self in 1995. I have been walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man since then, but not without falling now again.

Is it true that a Christian is both "dead" and "alive" at the same time? - Hopefully we are dead to sin and awake to righteounsess.

1 Corinthians
15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not...

quote:

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Posted by Mike Lowe:
I think the main point I'm trying to get across is that a sinner is someone who sins and a saint is someone who is experiencing the promises of God. And to say that someone who is walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man is a sinner is too confusing and even insults the promises of God.

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"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." 1.Tim.1:15

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32

"But go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matt.9:13

"When Jesus heard it, he said to them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17

I'd like to do conclusion. Not depending on that how far we achieve in our way of sanctification we are and will stay sinners, who need grace in front of the eyes of our Lord. So long as He will return back and will change us (like He is). That's all.

DA 24.2 "Satan represents God's law of love as a law of selfishness. He declares that it is impossible for us to obey its precepts. The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Heb. 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God."

You say you "crucified self in 1995;" what is it that you actually did?

How can one know that they have indeed, "crucified self?" Especially, noting the fact that in a real, physical crucifixion, you could never hang yourself on the cross...someone would have to do it for you.

2 Corinthians
13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

DA 172.1
The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit.

DA 172.2
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.

DA 173.1
While the wind is itself invisible, it produces effects that are seen and felt. So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven. No one sees the hand that lifts the burden, or beholds the light descend from the courts above. The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. Then that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God.

DA 173.6
Their great need was that very change which Christ had been explaining to Nicodemus,--a new moral birth, a cleansing from sin, and a renewing of knowledge and holiness.

DA 175.2
Not through controversy and discussion is the soul enlightened. We must look and live. Nicodemus received the lesson, and carried it with him. He searched the Scriptures in a new way, not for the discussion of a theory, but in order to receive life for the soul. He began to see the kingdom of heaven as he submitted himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

DA 175.5
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

I discovered the truth about conversion in 1995. Before that my life was very similar to Nicodemus' life, and like him when I understood the true nature of rebirth then my life was radically changed forever by the grace of God. It was the truth that set me free, just like Jesus promised.

The DA quotes above make it clear to me that there is a process that we pass through before we experience that radical transformation we call conversion. The when-then relationship before and after we undergo this miracle of rebirth is like night and day. Who cannot know it when it happens? The joy that filled my soul was rich and real and I knew something very special had happened to me the day I understood and accepted the truth about conversion. I was set free.

Please allow me to play "devil's advocate" for a short bit here, just to try and get at some fundamental points about this topic.

I asked you what you have actually done, in terms of "crucifying self," in 1995.

First, you appear in your above post, to be saying that it is a "process," yet, the way it looks, when you talked about how you crucified self in 1995, is that it was a one time event.

Also, are you telling us here, that the crucifying of self, is strictly the realization of an alleged point of truth, and mental acceptance of this point?

How can we crucify ourselves? To hang someone on a cross needs more than one set of hands, more than our own hands can do alone.

By the appearance of your responses, it looks to me like you are just talking about a change in behavior, or, in a point of belief.

Is this all there is to the crucifying of self?

If so, why do we need Jesus, if we can do all this?

I think that as a people, we grossly misunderstand this vital point of the Christian faith. We have no idea what it is to "crucify self." If we were really crucfying self, what results would we see?

What is really meant by "crucifying self?" What specifically must we do? What specifically were you set free from? To just say you were set free is different than a testimony of what one has been set free from. I don't believe people anymore if they just make the claim. I want to see some proof. I want to see a clear line demarcating what one must specifically be doing to "crucify self," that I too may be "set free."

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: DavidTBattler ]

And surely it must be obvious from previous posts and quotes that the "process" of conversion refers to that pre-converted period when the Holy Spirit is drawing us to Christ during which time we experience conviction, confession and commitment. And that the "product" of conversion is the gift of rebirth, which happens after we completely crucify self.

Is conversion a one time event? In most cases it is. But the problem is that most people never do experience conversion. She says conversion is rare and that most are buried alive. Those who do experience the miracle of rebirth are unlikely to turn their backs on God. King Saul is someone who did. Once converted we must maintain it by daily submitting to the indwelling Spirit of God.

6 BC 1075.7
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ.

6 BC 1101.1
The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.

RH 7-30-1901
Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of fault-finding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ. No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within. Faith passes into knowledge, and the word of God is understood. The branch becomes a living part of the Vine.

These quotes are so crystal clear further comment seems unnecessary. The before and after condition of a born again believer is like night and day. There are simply no comparisons only contrasts. Paul also gives convincing evidence in the following passage.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The contrast between the fruit of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit is also like night and day. To be converted means we no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh and that we now experience the fruit of the Spirit.

In 1995 I crucified self, what I mean by this expression is exactly what it means in Romans 6, that is, Jesus set me free from the lusts of the flesh and gave me the Holy Spirit to empower me to mature in the fruit of the Spirit. When I was converted that day Jesus implanted within me the attributes of God and the fruit of the Spirit. If you think that's arrogant take a look at these quotes:

COL 330.2
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.

DA 676.4
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.

DA 302.4
The only power that can create or perpetuate true peace is the grace of Christ. When this is implanted in the heart, it will cast out the evil passions that cause strife and dissension.

DA 407.1
But the gospel is not without a sign of its divine origin. Is it not a miracle that we can break from the bondage of Satan? Enmity against Satan is not natural to the human heart; it is implanted by the grace of God. When one who has been controlled by a stubborn, wayward will is set free, and yields himself wholeheartedly to the drawing of God's heavenly agencies, a miracle is wrought; so also when a man who has been under strong delusion comes to understand moral truth. Every time a soul is converted, and learns to love God and keep His commandments, the promise of God is fulfilled, "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." Ezek. 36:26. The change in human hearts, the transformation of human characters, is a miracle that reveals an ever-living Saviour, working to rescue souls. A consistent life in Christ is a great miracle. In the preaching of the word of God, the sign that should be manifest now and always is the presence of the Holy Spirit, to make the word a regenerating power to those that hear. This is God's witness before the world to the divine mission of His Son.

DA 409.3
The religion of Christ is sincerity itself. Zeal for God's glory is the motive implanted by the Holy Spirit; and only the effectual working of the Spirit can implant this motive. Only the power of God can banish self-seeking and hypocrisy. This change is the sign of His working. When the faith we accept destroys selfishness and pretense, when it leads us to seek God's glory and not our own, we may know that it is of the right order. "Father, glorify Thy name" (John 12:28), was the keynote of Christ's life, and if we follow Him, this will be the keynote of our life. He commands us to "walk, even as He walked;" and "hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments."1 John 2:6, 3.

DA 641.3
Love to man is the earthward manifestation of the love of God. It was to implant this love, to make us children of one family, that the King of glory became one with us. And when His parting words are fulfilled, "Love one another, as I have loved you" (John 15:12); when we love the world as He has loved it, then for us His mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven; for we have heaven in our hearts.

DA 678.1
This love is the evidence of their discipleship. "By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples," said Jesus, "if ye have love one to another." When men are bound together, not by force or self-interest, but by love, they show the working of an influence that is above every human influence. Where this oneness exists, it is evidence that the image of God is being restored in humanity, that a new principle of life has been implanted. It shows that there is power in the divine nature to withstand the supernatural agencies of evil, and that the grace of God subdues the selfishness inherent in the natural heart.

Please take the time to read these quotes. They spell things out so clearly it's hard to imagine anyone missing the point, which is - When we consent to crucify self (our defects of character and pet sins) we then experience the rare miracle of rebirth. God implants within us the mind of the new man "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." Eph 4:24. It comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God and all the fruit of the Spirit. We begin as babes in Christ, and like the baby Jesus we spend the rest of lives maturing in the fruit of the Spirit.

All you have done is to quote some rote definitions, which cannot serve to answer what I have asked.

Why is it that we cannot give a real sounding, lively, personal experience, when asked by someone if we have been "set free?" What kind of believers are we when all we can do is quote textbook definitions? Everybody does that these days.

Perhaps, you have missed what I am asking?

I will quote the essence of it again:

"I think that as a people, we grossly misunderstand this vital point of the Christian faith. We have no idea what it is to "crucify self." If we were really crucfying self, what results would we see?

What is really meant by "crucifying self?" What specifically must we do? What specifically were you set free from? To just say you were set free is different than a testimony of what one has been set free from." (and HOW they were set free BY JESUS).

Trouble with these quotes is that we can take them, one by one, start to "do them," and when we get to the last one...BINGO! We did it!

I call your quotes, in the context they are used, a wish list.