Okay, fair enough. I was baptized in 1982, but I did not experience real, true and genuine conversion until 1995. That's when I discovered the truth about the miracle of rebirth, the miracle of conversion. It was this knowledge that set me free. Before 1995 I was under the impression that after baptism a born again believer would spend the rest of their lives gradually outgrowing their defects of character. And that eventually there would be a final generation of saints who cease from sin and then Jesus would return.

The problem with this understanding, at least the way it translated itself in my life, was that I did not expect to experience complete, consistent victory right away in my life since victory was the result of years of sinning and repenting until finally the momentum of victory was one my side.

So whenever I failed to be patient with my children or wife I would minimize the problem and dismiss it as nothing more than a lack of experience. Victory in that area I figured was still in future. And I was very patient with my impatience because I assumed that victory took years to accumulate.

But when I found out that the Bible and the SOP teach that victory is available now and that it is a miracle when God empowers us to resist temptation, and that God's main goal for us is righteousness by faith now - this knowledge changed my life for good and for ever. I now expect to be victorious every time I am tempted, because now I believe God will not allow me to be tempted above His ability to empower me to resist unto His honor and glory. And I also believe that He implanted within me His righteous attributes and the fruit of the Spirit the moment I believed the truth about righteousness by faith and genuine conversion, the moment I stopped making excuses for my failures.

Okay, here's a partial list of some of the specific things God delivered me from - impatience, anger, revenge, faultfinding, criticism, envy, thoughtlessness, favoritism, foolishness, and the like. I never had problems with drugs, alcohol, rock music or sex. The victories I have been experiencing are nothing short of miraculous. Everytime God empowers me to resist a temptation I am amazed to watch His power at work in my life. Even the fact that I am able to recognize the many new faces of temptation and successfully resist them in the power of His indwelling Spirit thrills me to joy.

I expect to be successful every time I'm tempted and God never let's me down. There are times when I let Him down, but this does not disprove the promises of God. It just proves that I will fail if I don't keep my eyes on Jesus at every moment of the day and night. That's how I am victorious by staying connected to Jesus and believing I can be more than a conqueror through Him. I crucified self when I chose to believe in the promises of God and stopped making excuses for my failures. That's when sin and temptation lost power over me. Sin and temptation loses all power and appeal at the Cross. That's where I find victory.

Does that answer your questions?

I would suggest that most would agree that sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore a sinner is a law violator. Galations 5:14 - "The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'". Could we then say that as long as you are loving, you are a law keeper, and therefore not a sinner? But at the same time, love is continually growing and maturing, so we are never completed lovers, so each of us has growth to develope in our lives, and we therefore are not perfect non-sinners (saints) nor are we total or perfect sinners. Is perfection always absolute? I would suggest not since we are to be perfect here, as God is perfect in heaven, which SOP indicates is a diffrent type of perfection.

Is the conclusion that, as we grow as Christians we develope more love (more saintly) and therefore have less sinner qualities? Which will not reach full maturity until glorification?

DrD, I would even go as far as to say that maturing in the love of God will continue throughout eternity, which is way past the day of glorification. Thus it would seem evident that maturing in the love of God is not synonymous with becoming less sinful, but rather like the baby Jesus it involves becoming more mature in the fruit of the Spirit.

Like a plant is perfect and complete in the seed, in the green, and in the blossom so too Jesus was perfect and complete at every progressive stage of His development. And thus it is with born again believers. They are born again morally perfect and complete, but like the plant and baby Jesus they too must grow and mature into seasoned saints. And in reality this growth process will continue throughout eternity, not becoming less and less sinful but rather becoming more and more mature in the fruit of Spirit.

I'll be away on business until next week. But I might be able to access the forum between meetings.

SOP search “not commit sin” = 29 hits

1. {Mar 73.5}Maranatha
2. {1MCP 325.3} Mind Character and Personality Volume 1
3. {MH 180.5} Ministry of Healing
4. {PaM 260.2} Pastoral Ministry
5. {SD 297.4} Sons and Daughters of God
6. {Te 107.1} Temperance
7. {5T 177.1} Testimonies volume 5
8. {5T 220.2} “ ” “ ”
9. {GCB, April 23,1901} The General Conference Bulletin April 23 1901
10. {RH, December 13, 1887 par. 14} The Review and Herald (EGW Periodical Article)
11. {RH, June 22, 1905 par. 2} “ ” “ ”
12. {RH, September 27, 1906 par. 5} “ ” “ ”
13. {RH, November 18, 1909 par. 10} “ ” “ ”
14. {RH, June 30, 1910 par. 9}
15. {RH, June 30, 1910 par. 12}
16. {ST, February 8, 1883 par. 12} The Signs of the Times (EGW Periodical Article )
17. {ST, August 24, 1891 par. 2} “ ” “ ”
18. {ST, January 9, 1896 par. 3} “ ” “ ‘
19. {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 1} *
20. {ST, April 30, 1896 par. 3}*
21. {ST, May 2, 1900 par. 9}
22. {SW, February 19, 1907 par. 11} The Watchman (was known as The Southern Watchman)
23. {YI, February 15, 1894 par. 5} The Youth’s Instructor
24. {SpTA01b 27.1} An Appeal to Our Ministers and Conference Committees
25. {PH001 4.1} (Pamphlets ) PH001 - An Appeal (1882)
26. {PH086 12.2}(Pamphlets) PH086 - Special Testimony to Battle Creek Church (1898)
27. {8MR 291.5} Manuscript Releases Volume 8
28. {19MR 176.2}* Manuscript Releases Volume 19
29. {2SAT 74.4} Sermons and Talks Volume 2

* Some of these quotes & context contain strong point blank statements.

Edward, thank you for the list of quotes. Can you post a couple of them here?

This particular topic has been on my mind all evening before I came in here. Behold, here is the topic. Many questions come to mind.
For a long time I have been wondering about how can I as a saved person still sin. Am I perfect instantly? How so? Why do I still sin? Do my sins that are habitual (literally) name me a sinner or a saint?
If a person desires to do the will of God and yet falls often are they progressives saints or unsaved sinners?

Kay, perfection is a promise of God. But we humans take time to learn to trust completely. Regardless of what is said on this forum or anywhere else, can I just recommend the book, "To Know God" by Morris Venden? Read this, and your life and understanding will change. Some people will discourage you, and make you feel you aren't walking with God UNLESS you're perfect. Well, let me tell you, they aren't either. People closest to God are obsessed with the love of Jesus, not their own performance. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to save you, Kay, and if you keep walking towards Him, one day you will reach a point where you fall completely into His keeping, and you will be an overcomer. This is a most desirable place to be, but our works are just an evidence of our maturing relationship with Him. If it is in your heart today to follow Him, and you have given yourself into His keeping, and if you are doing the best that you know how to have Him control your life, you are saved. I expect to be contradicted, but buy the book - please.

zyph, thank you for your reply. I will look for that book. Thank you for the encouragement.

It is my earnest desire to follow Jesus in spirit and in truth.

I have known the truth for 27 years. I have failed miserably at times and misrepresented the Saviour and the truth by my (outward) life. I have have weathered many spiritual storms.

As I look back; I can see that God has made some tremendous changes in my life. There are a lot of changes that still need to take place.

I have yet had a pastor or a church member really look at me and answer my questions concerning this issue. I receive pat answers and scriptures roll of their tongues as if there thoughts were somewhere else.

It is my firm belief that as we minister to the down-trodden that we need to be sincere and look into another persons eyes and say with a surity that God does love me. He is willing to move heaven and earth to save me. Don't despair about who or what you are today. Ask God today in words that only you know how, to save you. He will. That is His promise. He has promised to do in you what you cannot do for yourself. He will change your heart, that is His job.

Thanks again.

Kay, welcome. I haven't had the privilege of studying with you yet. You may have noticed not all of us agree on this important subject. But I agree with Zyph that God does not reject us if we fall and fail. He is quick to offer us the gift of repentance which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin and gives Him the legal right to forgive us and to restore us to the mind of the new man.

But if we invent excuses for sin then we prevent God from fulfilling His promises in our life and we will continue to slip in and out of sin. I believe we need to take God at His word and expect to experiene His power to recognize and resist temptation - not just ocassionally, but every single time we're tempted to sin. Otherwise, we cannot achieve what we cannot believe (a line from Pilgrims Progress).

If we believe God does not allow the Devil to tempt us beyond His ability to empower us to resist unto His honor and glory then we can also expect to successfully resist any and every temptation that comes our way. If we choose to hide and abide in Christ (like Morris Venden writes about in his book - To Know God) then we have every right to trust God to bring us off more than conquerors.

But if we don't expect to be successful every time we're tempted then we are in reality planning to fail, and this will weaken our resolve to trust in God's promises to deliver us out of temptation. I believe trusting in God's promises is the key to living without the burden of committing known sin. If we develop the habit of expecting to be victorious every time we're tempted then I believe God will fulfill His promises in our life. But if we expect to fail every once in a while then it is very likely we will.

God's promises, which been quoted throughout this thread, are too specific to be misunderstood. There is nothing vague or difficult about them. And it rests with us to decide if we will believe His promises and experience victory or expect to be defeated and suffer the results of distrusting God's power. God will never let us down. We may let Him down, but He will never let us down. We have no reason to expect to fall. Instead, we have every reason to expect to succeed!

Please read the following very carefully:

"In the life of the disciple John true sanctification is exemplified. During the years of his close association with Christ, he was often warned and cautioned by the Saviour; and these reproofs he accepted. As the character of the Divine One was manifested to him, John saw his own deficiencies, and was humbled by the revelation.

Day by day, in contrast with his own violent
spirit, he beheld the tenderness and forbearance of Jesus, and heard Hislessons of humility and patience. Day by day his heart was drawn out to
Christ, until he lost sight of self in love for his Master. The power and tenderness, the majesty and meekness, the strength and patience, that he saw in the daily life of the Son of God, filled his soul with admiration. He yielded his resentful, ambitious temper to the molding power of Christ, and divine love wrought in him a transformation of character.

In striking contrast to the sanctification worked out in the life of John is the experience of his fellow disciple, Judas. Like his associate, Judas professed to be a disciple of Christ, but he possessed only a form of godliness. He was not insensible to the beauty of the character of Christ; and often, as he listened to the Saviour's
words, conviction came to him, but he would not humble his heart or confess his sins. By resisting the divine influence he dishonored the Master whom he professed to love. John warred earnestly against his faults; but Judas violated his conscience and yielded to temptation, fastening upon himself more securely his habits of evil. The practice of the truths that Christ
taught was at variance with his desires and purposes, and he could not bring himself to yield his ideas in order to receive wisdom from heaven. Instead of walking in the light, he chose to walk in darkness. Evil desires, covetousness, revengeful passions, dark and sullen thoughts, were cherished until Satan gained full control of him.

John and Judas are representatives of those who profess to be Christ's followers. Both these disciples had the same opportunities to study and
follow the divine Pattern. Both were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching. Each possessed serious defects of character; and each had access to the divine grace that transforms character. ***But while one in humility was learning of Jesus, the other
revealed that he was not a doer of the word, but a hearer only. One, daily dying to self and overcoming sin, was sanctified through the truth; the other, resisting the transforming power of grace and indulging selfish desires, was brought into bondage to Satan***." "The Acts of the Apostles" by Ellen White.

This tells me that John was being sanctified progressively, beginning when he began to walk with Jesus. Who gets sanctified? Surely only those who have already become justified. So John was justified, sanctified, walking with Jesus, but continuing to be beset with sins. He was arguing about who would be greatest in the kingdom, and he deserted Jesus when the soldiers came to arrest Him. He didn't stay in that condition, but he was IN that condition, and still regarded as a child of God.

"The Scriptures are the great agency in the transformation of character. . . . If studied and obeyed, the Word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute.

There is no such thing as instantaneous sanctification. True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last.

When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun." The Faith I Live By - Chapter Title: God's Remedy For Sin (It's possible that some references are incorrect, as I cut and pasted some things separately)

So, conversion is when we find peace with God through the atonement, and is the beginning. Then, through the agency of the word of God, which the converted person makes their study, our characters are transformed, but not instantaneously.

"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ, and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes; but we are not to be discouraged. "

"Courage, fortitude, faith, and implicit trust in God's power to save are needed. These heavenly graces do not come in a moment; they are acquired by the experience of years. But every sincere and earnest seeker will become a partaker of the divine nature. His soul will be filled with intense longing to know the fullness of that love which passes knowledge. As he advances in the divine life, he will be better able to grasp the elevated, ennobling truths of the Word of God, until, by beholding, he becomes changed, and is enabled to reflect the likeness of his Redeemer."

(Sorry - I don't have the references.)

I think it's clear that there is a process of growth during which we become complete overcomers. But we are regarded as perfect at any stage of this growth, because of the cross.

Just two more:

Justification means the saving of a soul from perdition, that he may obtain sanctification, and through sanctification, the life of heaven. Justification means that the conscience, purged from dead works, is placed where it can receive the blessings of sanctification (MS 113, 1902).

.--Sanctification means habitual communion with God (RH March 15, 1906).