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Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77533
09/04/06 11:28 PM
09/04/06 11:28 PM
C
Charity  Offline
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Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
To round out what I said in my last post, in Psalm 110 (I think) it says that Christ is given not only the kingship, but also the priesthood in Zion, the heavenly city, eternally. . . . 'Thou are a priest forever after the order of Melchez (Spelling?).' This is also one of the great events in the courts of heaven. Christ is solomnly installed by the oath of the Father - eternally. So he is Begotten as both priest and king.

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77534
09/05/06 03:10 AM
09/05/06 03:10 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quote.
I haven't followed this thread, but is this what you're mainly questioning James - whether the Holy Spirit should be worshipped as God?
Unquote.

Not only that, I mainly asked what is the “status” of the Holy Spirit? Is he a God? Or is he just the Spirit of the Father? Or because he is the Spirit of the Father, does he become equal to God the Father or does he become a “mini God”?
In all of these position and personification of the Holy Spirit, should we take him and worshipped as God? Does this not transgressing the 1st commandment?

In His love

James S

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77535
09/05/06 03:11 AM
09/05/06 03:11 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quote.
Is that economy of fellowship based on "self-existence"; or on "doing nothing of self"?
Unquote.

Is that economy of fellowship based on “self-existence?”
If yes, what is the implication?

Is that economy of fellowship based on “doing nothing of self?”
If all of the Godhead “doing nothing of self”, what might happen?
There should be One who is in charge, and the Others “doing nothing of self” except as a Mediator of the One in charge.
Is this the economy of fellowship between the Godhead?

In His love

James S

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77536
09/05/06 03:12 AM
09/05/06 03:12 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quote.
How should this verse be interpreted?

"Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the [presence of the Father? presence of the Son? presence of both?]"

Should we be baptized in the name of a Person and also in the name of the presence of that Person? Or should we be baptized in the name of a Person and in the name of that same Person again? That is, in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the (Father and the Son)? Does this make any sense?
Unquote.

What does the verse say? Is it saying that there are three equal Gods? I don’t think so. It is saying about witnesses of heaven, without clarifying their status. Their status is clarified in other part of the bible.
Is the Holy Spirit another Person of the Godhead or just the spirit of the Father. What image does he take in his personification? A bird? A human? A burning fire? A light? Does he has a fix identity or personification just as Jesus Christ, that we might accept him as another person of the Godhead, or even without it can we still accept him as another person of the Godhead?

In His love

James S

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77537
09/05/06 03:13 AM
09/05/06 03:13 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Quote.
Since Christ is called God, James, should we worship a lesser god and a higher God? Or a God more powerful and a God less powerful? This is bitheism, not monotheism.
Unquote.

According to the 1st commandment, we should worship the God that brought Israel out of Egypt, which is the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Lord our God, Jesus Christ, is the mediator of the Great Source of life, from whom all things came and for whom we live, the Father. So worshiping the Lord our God, is worshipping the Father. That what I think. Is what I think “bitheism” or “monotheism?”
As EGW said, Christ received all things from the Father, to give it to men and the world, to receive it back from them in and back again to the great Source of life.

In His love

James S

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77538
09/05/06 04:39 AM
09/05/06 04:39 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If we're going to quote EGW, she also said Christ was God, co-equal with God, the source of life, and "Jehovah, the self-existent One" who gave the commandments to Moses, specifically mentioning the first one, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." (the references to these have all been cited on this thread).

I think quoting EGW is great, but if we're going to do that, let's consider everything she's saying, as opposed to cherry-picking some things and throwing out whatever we don't like.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77539
09/05/06 04:42 AM
09/05/06 04:42 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Mark, do you see that Christ was begotten before He came to earth? Personally, I agree with the anti-trinitarian group in that Proverbs 8 applies to the event of Christ's being begotten in ages past. However, I do not see this as event meaning Christ's existence began at that point, but that He was, to use your phrase, "established," although in a different context. Not as King or Priest (although "Priest" sort of fits), but as the representative of God for all created beings which were about to come into existence.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77540
09/05/06 02:09 PM
09/05/06 02:09 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:

So worshiping the Lord our God, is worshipping the Father. That what I think. Is what I think “bitheism” or “monotheism?”



James,

If you consider Christ a lesser god, an inferior god, a less powerful god, it is bitheism. If you consider Him co-equal with God, it is monotheism.

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77541
09/05/06 02:21 PM
09/05/06 02:21 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:

What does the verse say? Is it saying that there are three equal Gods? I don’t think so. It is saying about witnesses of heaven, without clarifying their status. Their status is clarified in other part of the bible.
Is the Holy Spirit another Person of the Godhead or just the spirit of the Father. What image does he take in his personification? A bird? A human? A burning fire? A light? Does he has a fix identity or personification just as Jesus Christ, that we might accept him as another person of the Godhead, or even without it can we still accept him as another person of the Godhead?




Well, Ellen White speaks of three persons of the heavenly TRIO, and refers to the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Godhead. So, He is a Person. God is not split into two. God's "body" is not enthroned in heaven while another part of Him, His "spirit", is on earth. God fills heaven and earth (Jer. 23:24). He is not split into two.
If the Holy Spirit is a Person, what kind of person can He be? Would it be possible for Him to be a created person?

"The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God." {FLB 52.3}

Re: Are we transgressing the 1st commandment or not? #77542
09/09/06 01:18 AM
09/09/06 01:18 AM
D
Dan Wilson  Offline
Pastor
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 142
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
"The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden." {AA 52}


Unless you are born of water AND the Spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
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