1 John 3:9 says that a born again Christian "doth not commit sin" and that he "cannot sin." How can this be literally true?

Mike, I red this text in the NIV. In there, it says no-one born of God "will continue" to sin, and he cannot "go on sinning".

To me, this implies there will be a discontinuation of sin, but it does not imply perfection, and must be qualified by the text which states that if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father.

I believe perfect obedience is the goal. I believe it is possible, because Jesus lived as a man has to live. But I believe a new christian has a lot of learning and overcoming to do, and they don't always remember to focus on Jesus for their strength. I believe there is a learning process involved. But the point at which a person changes direction is the point of conversion. To tell someone who has developed a love for the things of God that they aren't converted yet because they don't obey perfectly, is completely discouraging, and doesn't allow for growth.

So, I guess we need to look at several versions of scripture to make the meaning of this text clear. And how many other qualifying texts are there? We can't just take one text on a subject and construct a theology around it.

Zyph, thank you for the alternate translation. In fact, it was the NIV that made me realize what the KJV was really saying about 1 John 3:9. The two are exact opposites, aren't they?

The NIV clearly implies that born again people regularly sin but that they don't stay in that state of mind. Whereas the KJV says that they do not and cannot sin. Which one is correct? They both can't be true.

Yes, a doctrine cannot be based solely on one text. But the entire book of 1 John is all about living without sin. See 2:3-5,29; 3:3-10; 4:12; 5:1-5,18. Not to mention John 8:11; Rom 6:1-23; 2 Cor 5:17; Gal 5:16; Eph 4:24; 1 Peter 2:21,21; 2 Peter 1:3-10 and Jude 24.

Rather than changing the KJV to mean the opposite of what it says in 1 John 3:9 and other passages, I have come to believe it this way:

In 1 John 3:9 it is referring to the "seed" that does not and cannot sin. And by comparing 1 Peter 1:23 and Eph 4:24 and Col 3:10 it is obvious to me that the sinless "seed" is the mind of the new man, which God implants within us the very moment we are born again.

Thus the way we can read 1 John 3:9 literally is to realize that it is referring to the sinless seed of the new man mind. That is, so long as we are walking in the Spirit (Gal 5:16) and mind of the new man (Eph 4:24 and Rom 12:1,2) we do not and cannot sin.

This doesn't mean we lose our freedom of choice. But in order to sin we must resurrect our old man mind. Because sin happens in the mind of the old man and not in the mind of the new man. This explanation allows us to take 1 John 3:9 (KJV) exactly the way it reads.

This view does not disagree with what you said about new Christians falling in and out of sin due to a lack of experience or taking their eyes off Jesus. But I don't believe that what I've shared about 1 John 3:9 would be discouraging for a new and struggling Christian.

On the contrary, all the people I've shared this truth with as a pastor have been encouraged to know that living without sin does not somehow depend on their ability to be strong enough to do it. Life without sin is a fact for those who have been born again and have their eyes on Jesus.

If we are in Christ we are at that precise moment without sin. It doesn't depend on our ability to live without sin. So we don't have to stretch our feeble human powers to live without sin. Rather all we have to do is stay connected to Jesus, to keep our eyes on Him and we are truly without sin. Because we are in the Spirit and mind of the new man.

Do you see what I mean? Living without sin isn't something that we have to work on real hard day after day until we finally achieve victory over our moral defects of character. Victory isn't what we achieve after years of sinning and repenting.

Victory is a gift, a gift we receive (not achieve) the moment we crucify our old man moral defects of character and receive the miraculous gift of the sinless seed of the new man mind. At that point we are without sin. Not just in a legal sense, but also in reality.

Victory is a gift. It's not something we must strive for day after day. It's a gift we receive instanteously the very moment God implants within us the sinless seed of the new man mind. And so long as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man from that point forward we are living without sin.

Yes, we may from time to time slip back into the mind of the old man and sin against God and mankind, but that doesn't mean we were never truly born again, nor does it erase the mind of the new man. When we accept the gift of repentance it empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and it gives God the legal right to restore the relationship our sin severed. He restores us back to the mind of the new man.

All of the promises of perfection and life without sin apply to life in the Spirit and mind of the new man. If we have been truly born again and are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we are at that time living without moral defect of character.

This explanation places victory fully in the camp of the miraculous. It has nothing to do with our hereditary or cultivated human weaknesses. Our previous short comings or lack of experience do not play a part in God's ability to empower us to live without sin.

God connects us to the "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) so that as we partake of His divine nature we more than mere mortals trying to obey God's law. We are super naturally embued from on high to do those things that are pleasing in His sight. See Phil 2:13.

This is the good news that has given so many people hope. Once they realize that fulfilling the promises of perfection does not in any way depend on their human weaknesses, but rather depends on the Almighty power of God - they are sweetly relieved and greatly encouraged. Victory is already a fact for those who stay connected to Jesus and His divine nature. It's a gift we receive, instead of somethng we must get up enough strength to achieve in our own power and lack of experience after years of sinning and repenting.

Doesn't that sound like good news to you?

Mike, this time you've spelled things out in a clearer manner. I agree with your theology 100%. It's the only good news there is.

Amen. Thank you Jesus. I'm so happy we finally see eye to eye on the most important truth in the entire Bible.

Now, can you help me share this truth with the rest of our friends on MSDAOL? As you know, I have been struggling to explain this beautiful message in a way that the others understand what I'm trying to say.

But I have this terrible feeling that most are not in agreement. I can't help but think that the problem is my fault. I just haven't been able to share the truth in way that makes sense to them.

So, would you please help me share it with the others?

Mike - what an invitation! I haven't been avoiding this page, I just need time to think about my response.

I think a lot of christians DO understand where their righteousness originates, but the whole process is a hit and miss affair, and if you told them there was a recipe for success, they'd come back at you about a works trip. They also don't like the word, "relationship" - and I can only surmise from what I've read, that this is because of the type of worshippers who use the expression. This seems to be sufficient reason for them to reject the concept out of hand. It's my oft-repeated expression, but throwing the baby out with the bathwater is very common, even among converted folk.

However, without a thorough discussion of the science of seeking God, in order to know Him, as scripture says we must, all the discussion about whether our behaviour is perfect or perfectable is out of its context, and becomes a burden. The automatic reaction to discussing perfection, is the secret little voice inside all of us that says, "Well, theories are fine, but what did I manage to overcome today?" And then comes the sinking feeling.

I believe the subject is less about the perfection of our obedience - relevant though it is - and more about how to cleanse the wellsprings of our motivation, and how to maintain a vital connection with the Source of all our power. People gladly grasp these things, because they fit with their daily struggle with self. They find it really hard, however, to have someone talk solely about perfect obedience, divorced from the rest. It's almost too clinical, and beyond our reach.

It must be iterated that the falling and failing is most often caused by our inexperience at maintaining the connection, rather than "the old man of sin" rearing it's ugly head. That only happens when we look away, and therefore is a symptom, and not the thing to be addressed.

Obedience is a gift, just like salvation. And when God heals us, whether it's from physical sickness, or spiritual, we are healed to the bone and marrow, not half way. So His obedience through us - when we co-operate and stand up, like the paralysed man - is absolutely perfect, and God regards each stage of our growth in learning to depend on Him more constantly, in the same way a parent watches their child develop their first faltering steps. The child is immature, and unskilled, but the child of that family nevertheless.

Maybe you don't agree with the way I express this. I'd be glad to hear what you think. And excuse any waffling.

Zyph, thank you for those encouraging words. I too believe that it is better to focus on Jesus than all the old man - new man details mentioned in the Bible. The mechanics of salvation are not nearly as rewarding as the actual experience or the relationship. Being able to stay connected to Jesus is awesome, especially when you realize it because you understand the truth about it. A relationship based on a knowledge of the truth - both intellectual and experiential - is what set me free.

But how do we help other people wade through all the factual stuff and not lose sight of Jesus? That's what my struggle has been. When people read those promises of perfection they either get discouraged or they tend to dilute them to agree with their failed experience because they don't understand the difference between being in the mind of the old man versus being in the Spirit and mind of new man (partaking of the divine nature).

Do you see what I mean? When I finally realized the truth about the old man - new man paradox it was like a light going on in my soul. It all finally made sense. Now I am able to read those promises exactly they are stated.

But again, how to share this truth without someone getting lost in the details of what they have come to believe about life without sin and the biblical truth about it.

What do you suggest?

Mike, when I was struggling with the obedience thing - and failing miserably, I might add - I heard a tape by Morris Venden. Then I read a book by him, and I couldn't believe this was Adventist doctrine, as I had never really heard it before. He said obedience was a gift. After speaking with some dear older Christian folk, I came to the conclusion that this was THE gospel, and the change in my life was profound.

I have no idea of whether you've read any of Venden's books. If you only ever read one of his, get "To Know God". It is a must-read for a simple, readable, enlightening "how-to" description of what bits we do, and what bits God does. I can't recommend this book or his writing more highly, and you will find a lot of his books cover the same points, because he is a fanatic on the subject of overcoming.

I've used Venden's words and analogies in a variety of situations, speaking with people as different as homeless men, and ministers of other faiths. They have left a lasting impression. So, I urge you to get hold of this particular book, and as many others of his as you can. Anything I might suggest would probably be said better by him.

And continue to study your bible in-depth. God will often give you an apt turn of phrase at just the right moment. The most important thing is that your words are coming from a Spirit-filled heart. Get closer and closer to Him, and He can lead you more easily.

Your anxiety over this issue is a comfort to me, Mike. It means that God is moving powerfully to proclaim the three angels' messages. (Ellen White said that righteousness by faith was the three angels' message "in verity".

I'll think about my own response to your question, and if I can come up with anything appropriate, I'll write more.

Zyph, thank you for recommending Morris Venden. I have read most of his books and heard scores of his tapes, besides listening to him in person several times over the last 15 years. He definitely as a wonderful way of sharing the gospel.

And of course there is nothing like Steps to Christ by Ellen White. And sho can forget the Desire of Ages? But I have found that most people who read EGW, and even Morris, read them with preconceived ideas, which prevent them from actually hearing what they're reading. And that is a challenge for me as a pastor trying to help them see what is really being said.

I have a manuscript which I had spiral bound and is the product of the last 7 years I've been teaching the gospel of life without sin. I've distributed dozens of them over the years. I get one of two reactions from the people who take the time to read it - it's about 100 pages - they either are amazed and thrilled to learn the truth, or they just don't get it and say nothing, or worse, they accuse me of being deceived.

I am not frustrated or undone over the whole ordeal of trying to reach people with the truth, but I am hopeful that more people can be reached every day. I can only share what I believe is the truth, and leave the convicting and convincing with the Holy Spirit. It is a major relief to leave it up God to do the convincing.

I look forward to anything you might have to say in future.

I think there is a fundamental key that isa missing here. Pastor Mike it seems you are struggling to accomplish something that may not need to be done. What I mean is this. You had to wrestle with the technical aspect of old man new man to realize the beautiful truth of growth in grace and experience peace and joy in the Spirit. From that, it seems you assume we all need to do that, but that isn't the case. We all come from different angles and struggle with different things. I for one never had to wrestle with these things. The light went on for me when I came to the realization Christ actually died for Dan Wilson, from 39 Dean Road, North Hatley, PQ. I had heard it said many times, but somehow, the full impact of it just hit me one day in a stairwell. After that it was evident to me that Jesus life was all I needed, but that my character would grow as a result of walking with Him.
My thoughts anyway...