In discussing this topic on other threads, it appears to me that there is a great disagreement as to what this means, at least to one other regular poster on this forum. I thought I'd post my understanding of it, and my understanding of the other's perspective, and see what others here think.

I believe that being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ, accepting Him as personal Savior, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, who reveals the love of God shining from the cross, moving one to repents of one's sins and give one's self to Christ. This process brings the repentant sinner into harmony with God, and necessarily into harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character. A converted person may fall into sin (although he need not), but he will not, as long as he is converted, rebelliously pursue sin.

MM's idea (please correct me if I misstate this), is that before a person can be converted, the Holy Spirit must reveal every sinful habit cultivated since birth, and all these sins must be confessed. No one who drinks (any drinking at all), for example, is converted.

Tom, please clarify something you posted. Does a person surrender themselves to Jesus before or after they are born again?

What I wrote seems pretty clear: "I believe that being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ."

What needs to be clarified here?

i'm really interested in the "new birth" or "born again."

using the EGW CD search, chasing the "new birth" was an eye-opener. for instance, it is stated that the night that Jacob had the ladder dream, he experienced the new birth. yet, he didn't have Jabok for 20 some years. what is the difference between the new birth, and Jabok?

what exactly is the new birth, or being born again? what is one's condition before and after? is this experienced once, or does it need to be repeated? and how often?

what is the difference between dying daily and the new birth? or is there any?

is the new birth equated with surrender?

how does one surrender? how does one surrender CONSTANTLY?

please use scripture in your replies...

Such as Eph. 6, where it states to "put on the armour" and "take the armour"... what is the difference between those statements, and what do they mean? how does one "put on the armour" and "take the armour" - according to scripture?


roxe
sorry for all the questions - i just want to understand, and it's difficult.

Good questions, roxe. Here are a few thoughts, which I hope will be helpful.

I know you asked for Scripture, but I'm going to start with the Desire of Ages, because this is the clearest explanation I know of:



This brings out that God draws us to Himself by revealing His love, especially by way of the cross. If we do not resist His drawing, we will be led to repentance. As we repent, we experience the miracle of the new birth, which is basically God reconciling us, or bringing us into harmony with Himself.

The "new birth" is synonomous with "conversion." So it can be applied to both the original experience whereby one is converted, as well as to the dying daily experience. Usually when one speaks of the new birth, one has the first experience in mind.

In terms of surrendering, one surrenders by believing. As Jesus said, "He who comes to me, I will in no way cast out."

Believing involves more than mental assent. It involves a uniting of the mind, heart and will with God's.

In terms of Scripture, the publican comes to mind:



To be justified is to be set right with God (or converted, born again). Here we see that he was born again as he simply asked for mercy.

In terms of surrendering constantly, I think something to keep in mind is what it is that God wants, so we don't misunderstand what surrendering is about. God does not want robots. The surrender He has in view is not a mindless one, where He tells us what to do, and we unthinkingly do it. Rather it is His desire that follow Him because we are convinced about Him; that we admire His character; that we believe in the principles by which He lives and governs.

Because God's ways are not our ways, and our perceptions of truth are off, when God reveals truth to us, there is always a challenge, or surrender, involved. We surrender by taking hold of the new wineskin and laying off the old, which is to say, by laying hold of the truths which God reveals to us.

MM: Tom, please clarify something you posted. Does a person surrender themselves to Jesus before or after they are born again?

TE: What I wrote seems pretty clear: "I believe that being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." What needs to be clarified here?

MM: The words "surrendering" and "surrender" mean different things, right? My question has to do with what must happen in order to experience the miracle of rebirth, and your statement seems to to describe what it takes to stay born again.

Roxe, your questions indicate you know a lot about rebirth, which should make studying with you very rewarding.

1. What is the difference between the new birth, and Jabok?

MM: I have never heard of Jabok.

2. What exactly is the new birth, or being born again?

MM: Jesus said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:5, 6) And Peter wrote, “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:22, 23)

What do these insights mean to you?

3. What is one's condition before and after?

MM: The following passages describe people before and after they are born again:

Ephesians
2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins:
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

4. Is this experienced once, or does it need to be repeated? and how often?

MM: Jesus’ counsel about it suggests that it should only happen once, but there are those who backslide and need to be “born again” again.

5. What is the difference between dying daily and the new birth? or is there any?

MM: The day we are born again is the first day we die to sin, self, and Satan. “I die daily” (1 Cor. 15:31) cannot mean, I sin daily. Therefore, it must mean - I choose every day to maintain the death of sin, self, and Satan. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.” (Col. 2:6, 7)

6. Is the new birth equated with surrender? How does one surrender? how does one surrender CONSTANTLY??

MM: Yes. But we must first understand what and who we are surrendering to. Rebirth is not an accident. Instead, it is the miraculous result of hearing and heeding the Word of God. It goes along with Jesus’ vine and branch illustration in John 15. It explains how born again believers constantly surrender.

7. How does one "put on the armour" and "take the armour" - according to scripture?

MM: Putting on and taking on armour refers to the same thing, namely, clothing ourselves in accordance with Paul’s illustration:

Ephesians
6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

MM: no i don't know alot about rebirth. i'm trying to figure it out. lots of confusion. Jabok=Jabbok, the brook where Jacob wrestled with Christ.
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Thanks Tom, for your trying to answer. it's not so easy to put this into words, is it.

what got me started on this, is the following statement:
"The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ" (MS 148, 1897).

if the new birth was a rare experience in 1897, and we are getting worse and not better, it must be almost non-existant now.

no wonder it's so hard to explain... if it's so rare to experience.

if you have the EGW CD, put in "new birth" in quotes like that, and start reading the hits that come up. it is stated over and over in various ways what is stated in the quote above, that self does not die... all they have is their head converted, the heart has not been touched - and the new birth has not happened, they just think it has.

when the new birth really happens, everything changes, the tastes, actions, thoughts, desires, everything.

i'm confused about the following two quotes:

"The Lord gave to Jacob, the lonely traveler wandering in a dreary wilderness, a wonderful dream. Jacob lay down to rest at night with a stone for his pillow, and there the Lord gave to him a glorious vision. He saw a ladder, the base of which rested firmly on the earth, its top reaching to the very heavens. It was a ladder of shining brightness, for God stood at the top, and His glory streamed from heaven to earth. This was a symbol of the ladder which all who love God will ascend heavenward, round after round. That night Jacob, the petted son of his mother, experienced the new birth and became a child of God. In his discouraged state the light that came to him was regarded as most precious, and the hard stone on which his head rested the most desirable on which his head had ever rested."--Ms. 85, 1908, pp. 1-6. ("Cooperation Between Schools and Sanitarium," June 30, 1908.) {10MR 263.4}

"In his childhood, Joseph had been taught the love and fear of God. Often in his father's tent, under the Syrian stars, he had been told the story of the night vision at Bethel, of the ladder from heaven to earth, and the descending and ascending angels, and of Him who from the throne above revealed Himself to Jacob. He had been told the story of the conflict beside the Jabbok, when, renouncing cherished sins, Jacob stood conqueror, and received the title of a prince with God. {Ed 52.1}

ok, the first one states that the night of the ladder dream Jacob experienced the new birth, which means a complete change. the second quote states that he renounced cherished sins at the Jabbok?

so, is the new birth an on-going experience?? reading all the hits on the EGW cd, it seems that it is an almost instantaneous thing, a 180 degree change of direction.

i've heard say that sanctification is a work of a lifetime.

ok, i just can't seem to put this all together. i'm more confused now than before i started reading all the hits. i've heard that this is so simple that a child can understand it... maybe i haven't gotten to "childhood" yet?? :-)

roxe

Jabok is where Jacob became Israel and got a limp.

Roxe, what do you think about the rest of what others posted in response to your initial post?

Sister White’s insight about new birth being “rare” is, no doubt, more true today than it was when she first penned it. Both the Bible and the SOP make it clear that conversion and rebirth involves crucifying our “old man” habits of sin, which means people must first confess and forsake their sinful habits (not necessarily the millions of sins that formed the habits), in light of the cross, before they can experience the miracle of rebirth.

That’s what happened to Jacob the night he wrestled with the angel of the Lord. His conversion and rebirth was the result of a long, patient, protracted process. No one is born again in one second or one day. There is no such thing as “sudden” rebirth. Yes, partial birth conversions abound, but they do not count as true conversion in the eyes of God.

True, genuine conversion and rebirth results in a “new creature”. God implants within people, the instant the complete the process of conversion, the sinless, incorruptible seed (mind) of the “new man”. Then begins the “lifelong” process of sanctification, a process whereby newborn believers grow in grace and mature in the fruit of the Spirit. So long as they are “abiding” in Jesus, so long as they are “walking” in the Spirit and mind of the “new man”, they do not and “cannot” commit a known sin.

The following passages confirm these things:

Romans
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

2 Corinthians
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Ephesians
4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.