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Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: Mountain Man] #83074
12/27/06 05:49 PM
12/27/06 05:49 PM
R
roxe  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 34
USA
just found, again, the following, which i had forgotten:
Quote:

"When perplexities arise, and difficulties confront you, look not for help to humanity. Trust all with God. The practice of telling our difficulties to others only makes us weak, and brings no strength to them. It lays upon them the burden of our spiritual infirmities, which they cannot relieve. We seek the strength of erring, finite man, when we might have the strength of the unerring, infinite God.
You need not go to the ends of the earth for wisdom, for God is near. It is not the capabilities you now possess or ever will have that will give you success. It is that which the Lord can do for you. We need to have far less confidence in what man can do and far more confidence in what God can do for every believing soul. He longs to have you reach after Him by faith. He longs to have you expect great things from Him. He longs to give you understanding in temporal as well as in spiritual matters. He can sharpen the intellect. He can give tact and skill. Put your talents into the work, ask God for wisdom, and it will be given you." {COL 146}

thank you, Jesus, for reminding me of this. i know YOU will change my confusion into solid truth and experience, for that is Your will for me.

Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: Mountain Man] #83081
12/28/06 03:29 AM
12/28/06 03:29 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM: Tom, please clarify something you posted. Does a person surrender themselves to Jesus before or after they are born again?

TE: What I wrote seems pretty clear: "I believe that being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." What needs to be clarified here?

MM: The words "surrendering" and "surrender" mean different things, right? My question has to do with what must happen in order to experience the miracle of rebirth, and your statement seems to to describe what it takes to stay born again.

Different in what way?

I wasn't speaking of staying born again, which you should have noticed by the fact that I wrote, "I believe being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." Had I been speaking of staying born again, I would have written something like, "Staying born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." (which is, of course, true, but wasn't my point.)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: Tom] #83082
12/28/06 04:39 AM
12/28/06 04:39 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Roxe, please allow me to get to what I think the heart of the matter is before addressing your questions. It seems to me that you are concerned about your own experience. If the new birth is a rare thing, how can I know I've experienced it? That's the question, isn't it? How can I have assurance?

The quote you gave I think is an excellent one. It says, " He longs to have you reach after Him by faith. He longs to have you expect great things from Him. He longs to give you understanding in temporal as well as in spiritual matters."

The foundation for our assurance lies in God's character. If we look to self, we are lost. We know what we are like. But keeping in mind that *God* longs for good things from us can fill us with hope.

Here's an article from A. T. Jones which speaks of this. I found this to be very encouraging, and hope you do too:

Quote:
You have been, and you are, thankful that you have confidence [trust or faith] in God. This is well; for it is a great thing to have doubt and uncertainty removed, and confidence in God established in the mind and heart. It is, therefore, a thing really to be thankful for, that you have confidence in God.

Yet there is a greater thing than this to be thankful for, and that is that God has confidence in you. Indeed, it is God's confidence in us that is all the ground of our confidence in Him. Considered solely upon the merit of the question, it is indeed a very little thing that we should have confidence in Him; while it is a thing great beyond all comparison that He should have confidence in us.

Just think what we were--a people laden with iniquity, alienated from God, and enemies in our minds, by wicked works. Yet when we were all this, God deliberately invested in us all that He had--the great price of His dear Son, in whom dwelleth all the fulness of God. This is a marvelous display of confidence.

He had such confidence in us that He would invest in us--aliens and enemies--all that He had, and all that He is--even Himself--expecting that His confidence in us would destroy the alienation, break down the enmity, and win us to confidence in Him. And this fairly reckless confidence in us did actually win us from alienation and enmity to confidence in Him. This is the only thing that ever did or that ever could so win us

Thus His confidence in us is all the ground of our confidence in Him. And thus is established and illustrated the divine principle that confidence begets confidence; yea, that confidence to the extent of what seems recklessness will beget confidence even to what seems recklessness; for no person can fairly and seriously contemplate the marvelous confidence that God has shown in us, without being won to a confidence in God that is a perfect abandon of trust--a trust that holds them firm and steady through every vicissitude--fire, flood, suffering, persecution, death itself--that this world can possibly know.

Nor did the Lord's marvelous display of confidence cease with only this investment to win us to confidence in Him; but when it had won us to confidence in Him, He then confided to our keeping His own honor in the world. He did not stay here in person to guard His honor and His character. No; He left the world, and left His disciples here in His stead, entrusting altogether to us the guardianship of His honor and His character. “As my Father hath sent Me, even so send I you.” John 20:21

Are you true to the trust, or are you betraying His boundless confidence? Yes, for us to have confidence in God is indeed a great thing; but O! great beyond all measure it is that God has confidence in us--and such confidence! May this perfect abandon of the confidence of God in us hold us from proving recreant to the trust and from ever betraying that confidence. --


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: Mountain Man] #83083
12/28/06 04:52 AM
12/28/06 04:52 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Roxe, regarding your questions.

Although the new birth is rare, that doesn't mean it's difficult, or difficult to understand. Jesus said, "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light." We know from personal experience that it is easier to live for Him than to live for self.

The reason it's rare is that many choose not to die to self, as Ellen White points out. This is, in my experience, either because they have not been driven to go to God because everything else has failed, or because they have not seen the beauty of His character.

Those who have had crises in their lives, due to the loss of a loved one, or some sickness (such as alcoholism, or others), sometimes give up, and are willing to give God a chance. Those who regular go to church often are not desperate, as their form of religion is sufficient. By sheer will power, we can talk ourselves into changing our behavior, into being religious.

If we look at the Pharisees, and the "sinners" in Christ's time, we see that the sinners were attracted to Christ, but the Pharisees, for the most part, hated Him. This is typical. When sinners catch a glimpse of the true God, they are often attracted to him, but holier than thou types hate Him, while professing to love Him, and without even recognizing it.

The quote you brought out earlier shows how God longs for our company, and how willing He is to lead us into truth. The truth is found in Christ. The simple truth that God is exactly like Jesus Christ is powerful enough to warm our hearts, to draw us to Himself. Bearing in mind His great love for us, and His desire that we be with Him, can buoy us with hope, knowing that if we ask Him for bread, He will not give us a stone.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: Tom] #83084
12/28/06 05:04 AM
12/28/06 05:04 AM
R
roxe  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 34
USA
thanks, tom, for that incredible quote. atj is difficult for me to read, but only becuz he doesn't put words the way i'm used to. i have to slow down when reading him... and try to put what he says into my own words. i don't know how many times i've read the 1893 and 1895 gc bulletin material, trying to grasp it. but praise God, it is getting easier!

i'm gonna be so GLAD when rev.20 happens, and we don't get the whispers, doubts, suggestions, impressions, insinuations, lies, gigo junk, etc., any longer!! no wonder we will be shouting thru all eternity--just to be free of that will be INCREDIBLE!!

i've been gently reminded yesterday and today of past leadings. and aren't we told to remember how God has led us in our past?? that's so we can keep that confidence inspite of not being able to "see" where we are going now.

yep, that's where faith comes in... that the leading is still going on right now, and keep praising HIM for it, no matter what we think we "see".

thanks for your prayers... you are in mine also :-)

roxe

ps. have you read the atj and ejw "lessons on faith" book?? whatchu think of them??
especially the creation vs evolution one??

Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: roxe] #83090
12/28/06 02:54 PM
12/28/06 02:54 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
i've been gently reminded yesterday and today of past leadings. and aren't we told to remember how God has led us in our past?? that's so we can keep that confidence inspite of not being able to "see" where we are going now.


Yes, remembering how we've been led in the past is very helpful. Also there's something to the effect of, when we're having difficulties, to remember the last place we received light, and go back to that.

The creation vs. evolution article is very nice. I like the Lessons on Faith articles O.K., but prefer the things written directly by Jones and Waggoner, rather than compiled, for the same reason as I prefer EGW's writings as she published them (as opposed to compilations). When you deal with compilations, you have to take into account that someone else is selecting the writings for you, as opposed to the author, so there's always the possibility of things being lumped together in a way which gives an impression the original author would not have desired.

Here's another quote from the Spirit of Prophecy which I have found encouraging:

Quote:
In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. {MB 76.2}


This is in particular the part I find encouraging. I like how it defines being perfect in terms of being like Christ, and tells us that God will succeed in accomplishing the work of making us like Christ, provided we do not insist upon interposing a perverse will. We often tend to think in terms of what we have to do, but this puts things in terms of what we have to NOT do, which is an easier way of thinking of things, I think.

The following is from the same chapter:

Quote:
With untold love our God has loved us, and our love awakens toward Him as we comprehend something of the length and breadth and depth and height of this love that passeth knowledge. By the revelation of the attractive loveliness of Christ, by the knowledge of His love expressed to us while we were yet sinners, the stubborn heart is melted and subdued, and the sinner is transformed and becomes a child of heaven. God does not employ compulsory measures; love is the agent which He uses to expel sin from the heart. By it He changes pride into humility, and enmity and unbelief into love and faith. {MB 76.3} ...

God is love. Like rays of light from the sun, love and light and joy flow out from Him to all His creatures. It is His nature to give. His very life is the outflow of unselfish love...

If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God... That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. {MB 77.3}


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: Tom] #83115
12/28/06 07:34 PM
12/28/06 07:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
MM: The words "surrendering" and "surrender" mean different things, right? My question has to do with what must happen in order to experience the miracle of rebirth, and your statement seems to to describe what it takes to stay born again.

TE: Different in what way?

MM: My question has to do with what must happen in order to experience the miracle of rebirth, and your statement seems to to describe what it takes to stay born again.

TE: I wasn't speaking of staying born again, which you should have noticed by the fact that I wrote, "I believe being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." Had I been speaking of staying born again, I would have written something like, "Staying born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." (which is, of course, true, but wasn't my point.)

MM: "I believe being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." I still don't understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that after we are born again that "being born again" involves surrendering our life to Jesus?

In order to experience the miracle of rebirth aren't we supposed to surrender ourselves to Jesus first? And then in order to stay converted and born again aren't we supposed to continue surrendering ourselves to Jesus?

Quote:
COL 318
In heaven it is said by the ministering angels:

The ministry which we have been commissioned to perform we have done. We pressed back the army of evil angels. We sent brightness and light into the souls of men, quickening their memory of the love of God expressed in Jesus. We attracted their eyes to the cross of Christ.

Their hearts were deeply moved by a sense of the sin that crucified the Son of God. They were convicted. They saw the steps to be taken in conversion; they felt the power of the gospel; their hearts were made tender as they saw the sweetness of the love of God. They beheld the beauty of the character of Christ.

But with the many it was all in vain. They would not surrender their own habits and character. They would not put off the garments of earth in order to be clothed with the robe of heaven. Their hearts were given to covetousness. They loved the associations of the world more than they loved their God. {COL 318.1}

Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: Mountain Man] #83116
12/28/06 07:43 PM
12/28/06 07:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Roxe, on page one of this thread I answered your initial questions. I posted twice. What do you think about what I posted?

Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: Mountain Man] #83134
12/29/06 05:04 AM
12/29/06 05:04 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM: "I believe being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ." I still don't understand what you are trying to say.

I can't imagine why you would have difficulty understanding this. It's a simple sentence. If I said, "I believe being born again involves faith" would you have trouble understanding that?

Are you saying that after we are born again that "being born again" involves surrendering our life to Jesus?

No, I'm saying what what I said. That doesn't mean that after we are born again we don't need to surrender, any more than it would imply that we don't need faith after we are born again.

In order to experience the miracle of rebirth aren't we supposed to surrender ourselves to Jesus first? And then in order to stay converted and born again aren't we supposed to continue surrendering ourselves to Jesus?

I'm not understanding your difficulty here. Let's say I had written that being born again involves having faith. Would you have trouble understanding that? Would you be asking the same questions?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean to be born again? [Re: Tom] #83147
12/29/06 08:08 PM
12/29/06 08:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Okay. If I’m reading you right, the following two sentences convey the same basic idea concerning someone who is “born again” in the eyes of God:

1. "Being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ."

2. "Being born again involves having faith."

Did I get it right, Tom?

…………………………..

Quote:
Tom wrote:

I believe that being born again involves the surrendering of one's life to Christ, accepting Him as personal Savior, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, who reveals the love of God shining from the cross, moving one to repents of one's sins and give one's self to Christ. This process brings the repentant sinner into harmony with God, and necessarily into harmony with His law, which is a transcript of His character. A converted person may fall into sin (although he need not), but he will not, as long as he is converted, rebelliously pursue sin.


I’m sorry, Tom, but I am still struggling to understand your description of what it means to be “born again” in the eyes of God. Please don’t be angry with me. Please be patient with me. Please don’t be shocked and amazed that I am struggling to understand your plainly worded description. Thank you.

Here is a breakdown of your description, as I see it:

“I believe that being born again involves …

1) the surrendering of one's life to Christ,
2) accepting Him as personal Savior,
3) under the influence of the Holy Spirit,
4) who reveals the love of God shining from the cross,
5) moving one to repents of one's sins and give one's self to Christ.

This process brings …

4) the repentant sinner into harmony with God,
5) and necessarily into harmony with His law,
6) which is a transcript of His character.

A converted person …

7) may fall into sin
8) (although he need not),
9) but he will not, as long as he is converted, rebelliously pursue sin.”

Questions:

1. Is the “process” you described in 1 thru 5 in the correct order?
2. Does this “process” reflect what a person does after they are born again?


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