What is this "flesh" that you are talking about?

The way you talk about "sinful flesh", has the connotation that then there also ought to be "holy flesh". Is that what you are trying to say?

1. The SOP describes the body and mind communicating back and forth. The body communicates innocent and legitimate needs, our appetites and passions, in the form of electrical impulses.

2. The flesh perverts them into unholy needs. For example, "I'm hungry" becomes, "Eat this or that" without reference to truth or temperance.

3. The mind converts these encoded electrical impulses into conscious thoughts and feelings. Temptations do not originate in the mind. We simply become aware of them in the mind. Again, the mind does not tempt us to sin.

It looks like you are attributing mental function to the flesh. You write that the flesh "perverts" them into unholy needs, without reference to truth or temperance. Discerning truth and temperance are mental functions.

You say that temptations do not originate in the mind, but that's the only place possible that they could occur. We are tempted when we realize a desire to do something we know to be wrong. Both realizing a desire and knowing something to be wrong are acts of the mind.

4. The "mind's eye" I referred to is not related to the sense of sight. Blind people are capable of "seeing" images in their mind.

It is related to the sense of sight, which is why I pointed that out. A blind person who had never seen anything would not see images in their mind. Why do you think this? It's just like someone who had never heard anything would not hear sounds in their mind.

5. The consuming fire of God's glory is similar to fire as we know it. It causes sinners to burst into flames and turn into ashes. Sinful bodies are highly combustible.

How long do the highly combustible bodies take to turn into ashes after bursting into flames. A matter of seconds, right? So this explanation would hardly jibe with the description we have that some suffer for many hours and some for many days. If their bodies burst into flames, they would suffer for a few seconds.

6. The fact it also gives life to the glorified saints most likely has to do with their material, physical difference. That is, glorified bodies do not burst into flames in the presence of God’s glory. They are made of flame proof material.

Flame proof material. So if the wicked had bodies which consisted of flame proof material, they would be fine? You seem to be perceiving that the problem of the wicked has to do with their bodies, not their minds.

7. That’s why not even Jesus, while abiding in sinful flesh, could appear in the unveiled presence of God.

Because He would have burst into flames, because His body was not made of flame proof material?

Thank you, Tom. It's been interesting. Do you have any questions for me?

We won't have holy flesh until Jesus returns. Sinful flesh is described in the following quote:

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

Some of my responses had questions for you.

It's what I've read. The art of seeing without sight is amazing. Prophets were able to see the impossible. Check out this link:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18524841.700


God is amazing. He was able to prevent the three Hebrew worthies from burning up. Surely He can regulate it in the lake of fire.


Correct. The fact is though the wicked will never have sinless bodies.


Correct. Jesus became sin for us and sin cannot abide in the presence of God.

We have already discussed this in the past, but I am re-posting the quotes:

When too late he [the sinner] will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides upon him. This [the realization that God’s wrath abides upon him] is fire unquenchable. Thus the soul and body of every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. {18MR 74.1}

Against every evildoer God's law utters condemnation. He may disregard that voice [of God’s law], he may seek to drown its warning, but in vain. It follows him. It makes itself heard. It destroys his peace. If unheeded, it pursues him to the grave. It bears witness against him at the judgement. A quenchless fire, it consumes at last soul and body. {Ed 144.5}

The light that shines on our path, the truth that commends itself to our intelligence, if obeyed will sanctify and transform the soul, but if disobeyed it will consume us. {17MR 59.2}

[Christ was] the only One who could bear the strokes in behalf of the sinner and because of His innocence not be consumed. {HP 42.4}

Great quotes, Rosangela.

Do we build up mental images using just our eyes or do other senses contribute too? How much can congenitally blind people really understand about space and the layout of objects within it? How much "seeing" does a blind person actually do?



4. The "mind's eye" I referred to is not related to the sense of sight. Blind people are capable of "seeing" images in their mind.

It is related to the sense of sight, which is why I pointed that out. A blind person who had never seen anything would not see images in their mind. Why do you think this? It's just like someone who had never heard anything would not hear sounds in their mind.

It's what I've read. The art of seeing without sight is amazing. Prophets were able to see the impossible. Check out this link:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg18524841.700

This was an interesting article. It's not saying what you said, however. For example, the article says;



Here it speaks of how other senses contribute to our building mental images. These mental images are not depenpendent upon sight. They are images which are not seen (since blind people can't see), but perceived, by way of the senses they have.

Quote:
5. The consuming fire of God's glory is similar to fire as we know it. It causes sinners to burst into flames and turn into ashes. Sinful bodies are highly combustible.

How long do the highly combustible bodies take to turn into ashes after bursting into flames. A matter of seconds, right? So this explanation would hardly jibe with the description we have that some suffer for many hours and some for many days. If their bodies burst into flames, they would suffer for a few seconds.

MM:God is amazing. He was able to prevent the three Hebrew worthies from burning up. Surely He can regulate it in the lake of fire.

Surely it makes more sense to say that God is "regulating" the persons involved, not the fire. The fire, in the case of the Hebrew worthies, was no different than normal fire. When the non-worthies were cast into it, they burned, just like anyone would expect. Right?

Quote:
6. The fact it also gives life to the glorified saints most likely has to do with their material, physical difference. That is, glorified bodies do not burst into flames in the presence of God’s glory. They are made of flame proof material.

Flame proof material. So if the wicked had bodies which consisted of flame proof material, they would be fine? You seem to be perceiving that the problem of the wicked has to do with their bodies, not their minds.

MM:Correct. The fact is though the wicked will never have sinless bodies.

This fact isn't relevant. What causes their suffering is their sin. Even with a flame-proof space suit, for example, they would still suffer and die. If God could fix the sin problem by handing out flame-proof suits, He would have done that, but the problem of sin is in the mind, which still remains, even while surrounded by flame-proof material.

Quote:
7. That’s why not even Jesus, while abiding in sinful flesh, could appear in the unveiled presence of God.

Because He would have burst into flames, because His body was not made of flame proof material?

Correct. Jesus became sin for us and sin cannot abide in the presence of God.

"Jesus became sin for us" means "Jesus' body was not made of flame proof material"?

That was a great article, MM (about the sightless artist). Really interesting. I was curious how you came about it.