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Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Inga] #95386
02/07/08 07:28 PM
02/07/08 07:28 PM
F
fun2believe  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 113
California, USA
I can't tell you that, it's not what I was sent here to do. I'm here to help people understand that it's not the "dogma" that matters. It's GOD. In fact, nothing else matters. I don't have all the answers, only God does. I've stopped looking to PEOPLE for answers. I ask God.

And when we talk, He tells me the answers. Because we have a relationship. He and I. He does not take into account how often I go to church. He does not take into account, if I raise my hands in church. He doesn't care if the ark ever floated or not. Those are NOT the points He's teaching me.

He's showing me His love. It's shinning out to others. It grow's brighter every day I spend walking with my Lord. I focus on HIM, not a book. I'm looking up into His eyes, so we can communicate. I like to look people in the eye when I'm talking to them, not into a book. This way, I know they are listening, not just hearing what I'm saying. There is a very big difference.

Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: vastergotland] #95395
02/07/08 09:59 PM
02/07/08 09:59 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
If you start to argue down this path, then hair and nails must be done away with, skin as we know it must be done away with, the stomach and intestine system must be entierly remodeled. Maybe God can keep his original design of the brain, perhaps. What may look like a simple argument about wether one will have to cut ones hair or not swiftly turns out to be an argument about God taking us and remaking us into something which is not a human body by any definitions now known. This is conceviable if one has the view that humans are souls which inhabits bodies, where God could easily take the human from an earthly body and place him or her in a new and different body. With the adventist view that there is no such thing as a human without a body, this is just foolishness as well.

I suggest you re-read 1 Cor. 15:

35 But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
36 You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Inga] #95396
02/07/08 10:01 PM
02/07/08 10:01 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Just so you know, I don't believe it is a parable. It is representational language of a process we could never understand. How could man ever hope to understand the ways of the Creator?


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: fun2believe] #95407
02/07/08 11:16 PM
02/07/08 11:16 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
IF you could all just take a minute, and step back. Look objectively at the church we have created. Is it REALLY bringing people closer to christ? Are people more happy inside the church than outside of it? We certainly don't NEED the church, God even say's so. So why have it? I think it's fine if it does something good(like bring people to Christ), but it's clear it's doing the opposite.

Look at the falling numbers. Look at all the scandel and controversy. You want to say that's it's because it's the "end time" and we are getting closer to heaven. But are we? With the way this chruch is run, and the beliefs people in it push upon others (yeah, that's right, push.) When was the last time you went to a different chruch, and presented like a lay person? Try it, see what you find. You'll find people pushing their beliefs and DOGMA's onto you, not offering you the chance to decide for yourself. God does not do that to us, why does this church?

God gave us this ability to reason. Reasoning is not a result of Sin. God gave us the ability to reason, and even demanded it of us. He gave us choice, and the ability to look at BOTH sides of the coin. Why can't this chruch do that? How long will we keep driving people away from the Light? A chruch is only as strong as it's members (the way a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link), and it's the member's that make up the chruch. So this church is weak and narrowsighted, because the people REFUSE to use the skills that God gave us.

fun2believe,

Everything on this earth is imperfect. We are imperfect, and we are the church; therefore the church is imperfect. But if we place ourselves in God's hands, He can use us to make the church and the world a little better place.
Now, regarding the discussions in this forum, I would like to make clear that nobody here is trying to push his/her views upon you or anybody else. Provided they respect the beliefs of the SDA church, which is one of the forum rules, everybody here is free to expose his/her views, but the others are also free to agree or disagree. The fact that someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that that person is trying to push his/her views upon you.

Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Rosangela] #95410
02/07/08 11:51 PM
02/07/08 11:51 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
 Quote:
If you start to argue down this path, then hair and nails must be done away with, skin as we know it must be done away with, the stomach and intestine system must be entierly remodeled. Maybe God can keep his original design of the brain, perhaps. What may look like a simple argument about wether one will have to cut ones hair or not swiftly turns out to be an argument about God taking us and remaking us into something which is not a human body by any definitions now known. This is conceviable if one has the view that humans are souls which inhabits bodies, where God could easily take the human from an earthly body and place him or her in a new and different body. With the adventist view that there is no such thing as a human without a body, this is just foolishness as well.

I suggest you re-read 1 Cor. 15:

35 But some one will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
36 You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
If Paul is telling us how our future bodies will be, then I was right when I said that God will give us bodes which do not correspond with anything we know about today. But if Paul is making an illustration about our spiritual life after having died and been ressurected with Christ through baptism, then maybe we should be a bit more careful with what other conclusions we draw from the passage.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Rosangela] #95411
02/08/08 12:07 AM
02/08/08 12:07 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
One of the favorites expressions of Christ was "It is written." He overcame the devil by quoting the Bible.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’"

He proved that He was the Saviour by quoting the Scriptures.

Luke 24:25-27 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Luke 24:44-48 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

The prophets demonstrated that Jesus was the Saviour by quoting the Scriptures. The expression "It is written" can be found 77 times only in the NT.

If Jesus, the Lord, used the Scriptures, preached the Scriptures, lived by every word of the Scriptures, how can we hope to survive without the Scriptures?

Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: vastergotland] #95412
02/08/08 12:14 AM
02/08/08 12:14 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
If Paul is telling us how our future bodies will be, then I was right when I said that God will give us bodes which do not correspond with anything we know about today. But if Paul is making an illustration about our spiritual life after having died and been ressurected with Christ through baptism, then maybe we should be a bit more careful with what other conclusions we draw from the passage.

It's easy to know what Paul is referring to. Just read the whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 15.

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up——if in fact the dead do not rise.
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Rosangela] #95414
02/08/08 12:50 AM
02/08/08 12:50 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
If Paul is telling us how our future bodies will be, then I was right when I said that God will give us bodes which do not correspond with anything we know about today. But if Paul is making an illustration about our spiritual life after having died and been resurrected with Christ through baptism, then maybe we should be a bit more careful with what other conclusions we draw from the passage.


Concluding that God will give us bodies which do not correspond to anything we know about today seems a bit much to me. I'm sure there is much about resurrected bodies which will be completely new, but there is much that won't be as well, don't you think? For example, we will have 2 arms, 2 hands, 2 eyes, etc.; our manner of thinking will be the same (without the forgetfulness and stupid mistakes)

Regarding the second point about it being an illustration, I'm not following that. The whole chapter is talking about the resurrection. It's centered on the resurrection of Jesus, which is dealing with His literal resurrection, where he was physically dead, but raised up with a spiritual body. Do you not understand it this way? Our resurrected bodies will be like Jesus' was. That seems clear to me. Do you disagree?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Tom] #95415
02/08/08 12:54 AM
02/08/08 12:54 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Rosangela, Jesus said, "You search the Scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life, but they are they which testify of Me."

I would think we would ask, "How can we get along without Christ?" Christ lived by depending upon His Father.

The Scriptures are a means to an end. The end is knowing God. The Scriptures provide a line of communication, not the only one, but certainly a vital one. There is no doubt we need to know the Scriptures, but not in and of themselves, but as a means to an end, the end being knowing God.

I suspect (hope!) you will agree with all this, and that I'm making a needless clarification.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is the story of the world wide flood a parabel or reality? [Re: Tom] #95421
02/08/08 11:57 AM
02/08/08 11:57 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Tom,

I sure agree. It's useless to know the Bible from cover to cover without letting the Bible lead us to its Author. That's why the work of the Holy Spirit is so important. He is the only One who can transform cold written words in the living words of a loving God.

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