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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97919
04/08/08 08:48 AM
04/08/08 08:48 AM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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TV: What you wrote goes beyond scripture.
MM: How so?
It doesnt say that the blood spilt as coverup did or didn't have anything to do with it.
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TV: Yes and no. While sin and death will be finally eliminated at the end of this age, I still maintain that both were defeated 2000 years ago. As Paul wrote:
MM: Isn't Paul talking about the day Jesus returns? Also, in what way did Jesus defeat sin and death on the cross?
Like this, sin and death belong together inseparably. When Jesus rose from death He demonstrated that He had defeated it, and by defeating death He must also have defeated sin. One can also see that Jesus brought all sin with Him upon the cross. So considering that your and mine sins are crucified, how are they not defeated?
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TV: Do you or do you know anyone or have you heard about anyone other than Jesus who has ever obeyed the law perfectly? Read the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. What characterises all of these people who appears in the annals? Was it the perfect keeping of the law which let Rahab and Samson join Moses and Abraham in the same list?
MM: Being perfect (not committing known sins and maturing the fruits of the Spirit) is conditional, right? People are perfect if and when they are abiding in Jesus. If and when they are not abiding in Jesus they are not perfect. At least that's how John and Paul and Peter describe it.
That people are perfect through abiding in Jesus I can agree with. That perfection necessarily means not committing any sins is the question. The words used for perfection in the bible do not have lawabiding as synonyms but rather completeness, wholeness, soundness, integrity. Now you will likely say that lawkeeping promotes these qualities, but at most this would say that lawkeeping is a means to an end and not the end itself. And I also wonder, considering what the epistles of the NT have to say about the subject, wether even that is all there is to it. When we read that law empowers sin, it would seem foolish to trust in the law to save us from sin. And further, I doubt anyone in the times of the bible authors would have thought about the ten commandments as you and I do when they heard about the law of God. The word always translates Torah, the teaching of God.
So, yes, there are plenty of people who are perfect, but only while they are abiding in Jesus. Will it be obvious to us that they are abiding in Jesus, that are experiencing perfection? Not always. Jesus went mostly unnoticed the first 30 years of His life. Yes, there were people who realized He was righteous and blameless, but most people paid no attention.
People are complete in Jesus because He can fill a God-sized hole in human souls. Therefore, as you say, as long as one abides in Jesus one experiences completion, wholeness, integrity. Someone characterized by these state of mine will not go unnotised among those they daily interact with, although they are unlikely to hit the evening news.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: vastergotland]
#97937
04/08/08 06:31 PM
04/08/08 06:31 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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TV: When Jesus rose from death He demonstrated that He had defeated it, and by defeating death He must also have defeated sin. One can also see that Jesus brought all sin with Him upon the cross. So considering that your and mine sins are crucified, how are they not defeated?
MM: If our sins were crucified with Jesus on the cross, why, then, do we continue to fall in and out of sin?
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TV: That people are perfect through abiding in Jesus I can agree with. That perfection necessarily means not committing any sins is the question. The words used for perfection in the bible do not have lawabiding as synonyms but rather completeness, wholeness, soundness, integrity.
MM: Do the words for "perfect" in the Bible exclude obeying the law? Do the words "completeness, wholeness, soundness, integrity" exclude obeying the law?
Also, what do the words for "perfect" mean in relation to Jesus? Do they exclude obeying the law? Do they mean one thing for Jesus and another thing for born again believers who are abiding in Jesus?
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#97946
04/08/08 07:20 PM
04/08/08 07:20 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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TV: When Jesus rose from death He demonstrated that He had defeated it, and by defeating death He must also have defeated sin. One can also see that Jesus brought all sin with Him upon the cross. So considering that your and mine sins are crucified, how are they not defeated?
MM: If our sins were crucified with Jesus on the cross, why, then, do we continue to fall in and out of sin?
One of the mysteries of life.
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TV: That people are perfect through abiding in Jesus I can agree with. That perfection necessarily means not committing any sins is the question. The words used for perfection in the bible do not have lawabiding as synonyms but rather completeness, wholeness, soundness, integrity.
MM: Do the words for "perfect" in the Bible exclude obeying the law? Do the words "completeness, wholeness, soundness, integrity" exclude obeying the law?
Also, what do the words for "perfect" mean in relation to Jesus? Do they exclude obeying the law? Do they mean one thing for Jesus and another thing for born again believers who are abiding in Jesus?
You would have found the answers to your questions in my previous post had you not edited them out.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: vastergotland]
#97961
04/08/08 11:57 PM
04/08/08 11:57 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Thomas, thank you for sharing. I appreciate learning what you think and believe.
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: vastergotland]
#98121
04/12/08 02:24 AM
04/12/08 02:24 AM
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When Jesus said "Be ye perfect", perhaps that expresses His WISH, His desire, rather than His command. But we are perfect when we're covered by the robe of His perfection, while under it we deal with our faults and sins both large and small, in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, up until the day of our death. I think that's how it works.
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98122
04/12/08 02:42 AM
04/12/08 02:42 AM
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Sorry I'm late answering, Mountain Man, about the couple who are not married. Our pastor at our SDA church is a man I fully believe is a converted Christian.
Now, there are others, a deacon especially, who is heavy on works and is first to say to expell those who do not shape up, quit smoking, pay tithe,or else, etc. What do you do when you expell someone? You are made happy the church building is up to your standard, But the people you kick out are thrown out to the wolves, so to speak. How will they be helped?
Transformation does not occur on our time schedule, but that of the Holy Spirit who labors silently, persistently in the hearts of men and women. Our pastor is most respectful of the right of the Holy Spirit to do His work in His time and His way. I think we poor humans are totally unqualified to give someone a time limit, or an ultimatum. With many church leaders it's a question of power, not concern for the offender, when they want to kick people out.
Mainly those so exacting of others are those who must be obeyed in order to feel superior. You must do what they say, or they feel powerless and littler than you. They are the one's who need conversion more than anyone who smokes, drinks, or is caught in the middle of a questionable relationship. That is my observation and opinion on the couple who are not ready to conform.
I would feel less tolerant of someone coming in and trying to tell everybody it's okay to sin or doesn't matter what day you keep, and such blatant sedition to lead others astray. About holding office, that might be something our Pastor would not allow for the couple until they marry.
Definitely he would not "excommunicate" them but keep trying to influence them. They know what they should do. That is my take on it. Thanks for answering. I respect your knowledge, too.
Last edited by Skylynx; 04/12/08 02:55 AM.
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98181
04/14/08 05:35 PM
04/14/08 05:35 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Skylynx, While I was the prodigal daughter I started living with a man I love dearly and we had been together 16 years when I returned to the Adventist faith of my youth. I started going to a small, close-knit, loving SDA church. Quite a dilemma! Though my "boyfriend" wasn't SDA, he was a good man, and I knew God cared about his soul, too. I first made rationalizations, but never felt settled by them. It got so this issue came up to my face every time I prayed. The pastor was anxious for us, but wasn't pushy. I was afraid to ask my friend to marry....don't know why but just seemed impossible to bring it up. Anyway, it got to be such a crisis within me I surrendered it to the Holy Spirit, cried bitter tears of frustration, admitting how impossible it seemed to resolved this. I reached the place where I could admit to God that it was wrong for us to live together out of wedlock, but also imploring His help. As it turned out, I invited the pastor over to see a mural I was doing for the church, and he took the occasion to bring up the topic of marriage while we were all together. The pastor was very skillful in how he brought this up to my boyfriend. As it turned out, my boyfriend had wanted to get married all this time, but was afraid to ask me. From that meeting, we both agreed we wanted to get married, and proceeded to do so that coming week! What I'm trying to say is how the converted person may have some extremely difficult issues in his life to overcome, that he got into long before commitment to the new way of life. He may not be able to change it suddenly, given the complexity of the personalities concerned whose souls are as important as his. Indeed, the law of God is simple black and white, but the tangles people get into over the law can be like Gordian knots. But whenever a person is converted and close to the Lord, his privilege is to surrender to Jesus, confess his helplessness to do right by his own effort, and look for any way to comply as best he can. God will find a way for the honest supplicant. What seems so insurmountable, God can unravel with His providence with miraculous ease at just the right time! Skylynx, thank you for sharing your testimony. I am very glad you guys got married. Funny he was thinking the same thing. Sweet. I could use your advice. I know a couple, both are believers, met at church in fact, both have children, and they are living together out of wedlock. They are also officers at church. One day they asked my opinion about living together out of wedlock. Yikes! I had them read it in the Bible and in the SOP and in the church manual. They agreed living together out of wedlock is condemned in all three sources. But, they prayed about it and decided God was making an exception in their case. That was 2 years ago. The regular pastor is unwilling to do address it. What should the church do about it? Should they ignore it? Or, should they censure them and remove them from holding church offices? Skylynx, thank you for the advice. You seem to be suggesting they shouldn't hold church office. What is the best way to go about it? By the way, there are three other couples who are living together out of wedlock. They have also concluded the Bible, the SOP, and the Church Manual forbid it, but that God is making an exception in their cases. Recently, one of these couples has complained to the pastor that two teens are living together out of wedlock. One of the teens is their daughter. These two teens hold church office - they are the youth leaders. Church members are up set. Some are now attending other churches. The community is talking. What should the pastor do? For now, he isn't doing anything. He feels the Holy Spirit will resolve the issue when the time is right.
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98193
04/14/08 08:44 PM
04/14/08 08:44 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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A couple who are cohabiting without being married are complaining to the pastor that their daughter is doing the same? Why would they do that? If it is allright for them, why would it not be for the girl?
The community is talking or walking because the two youth leaders are living together without being married. What are they assuming to accomplish with that behaviour? Shame the teens out of church? Help themselves appear more righteous because their sins are either not as public or more culturally acceptable?
If the pastor is really doing nothing, it would appear his leadership skills could use some improvements. But perhaps he is working on the case the biblical way with taking it to those concerned rather than publicly adding fuel to the gossips fire?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: vastergotland]
#98225
04/15/08 05:52 PM
04/15/08 05:52 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The people who decided to go to different churches did so to avoid their own teens being influenced to live with someone else out of wedlock. I suppose this could be perceived as critical, judgmental, intolerant, unaccepting, holier-than-thou, and unChristlike. I don't know. Perhaps they are simply being protective parents.
The cohabitating parents whose teen daughter is living with her boyfriend out of wedlock are complaining to the pastor because they feel the exception to the rule only applies to older people, not to younger people.
The pastor feels like doing nothing is doing the right thing. He believes the church family should love them and accept them and that this will lead them to eventually do the right thing. He agrees his approach is not biblical, but he argues that times are different, that what was right in biblical times is not right nowadays.
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Re: Can sinning be overcome....
[Re: Mountain Man]
#98258
04/16/08 02:06 AM
04/16/08 02:06 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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Recently, one of these couples has complained to the pastor that two teens are living together out of wedlock. One of the teens is their daughter. If parents desire their children to be right and do right, they must be right themselves in theory and in practice. ... They should remember that the example they give their children, they will see reproduced in them. {HR, January 1, 1880 par. 6}
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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