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Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: Tom] #104058
10/28/08 12:10 AM
10/28/08 12:10 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Florida, USA
At Southern College it was the center of controversy for a time while I was there, but I couldnt wrap my head around it as it no one really knew or I think even comprehended where it would lead to. I felt it was just a minor theological issue that would fade away. Soon after that we started to hear this subtle shift to downplay the use of the writtings of Ellen White, then the charges of plagarism, and the criticism of her work, which has mushroomed with the information on the internet...

Here is few of Desmond Ford's links if you need to check on his view on the issues...

http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/DFordSS.htm

http://www.goodnewsforadventists.com/home/skyview.php?keyid=262

Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: Rick H] #104062
10/28/08 02:05 AM
10/28/08 02:05 AM
A
Aaron  Offline
Regular Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
Richard, what years were you at Southern?

Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: Aaron] #104063
10/28/08 02:12 AM
10/28/08 02:12 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Something else that's interesting are there are many who have ideas very similar to Ford's, but rather than downplay the use of the writings of Ellen White, or criticize her work, they find Ford's ideas in Ellen White's writings.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: Tom] #104071
10/29/08 01:07 PM
10/29/08 01:07 PM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
Ford taught that justification is a legal acquittal that happened 2000 years ago when Christ stepped into the place of humanity and suffered their punishment for sin. This is the evangelical view of the atonement, but Adventist literature has never taught it.

Justification is something that happens in the mind when a person is converted (set right) to Jesus. 2000 years ago Christ did everything necessary for our justification, but what He did only benefits those who believe. Justification is being set right with God in our mind.

Jesus didn’t come to change God’s mind about us, which is what the evangelical justification teaches, but He came to change our mind about God.

scott

Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: Rick H] #104079
10/29/08 09:14 PM
10/29/08 09:14 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
I also personally believe the Omega of apostasy is in some way related to the attack to the sanctuary doctrine.

"In the future, deception of every kind is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. We want solid pillars for the building. Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord has established. The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a departing from the faith. Where shall we find safety unless it be in the truths that the Lord has been giving for the last fifty years?" {RH, May 25, 1905 par. 28}

"It is your privilege to know what is truth, because for more than half a century we have been guided step by step by the counsels of the Spirit of God. At this time many efforts will be made to unsettle our faith in the sanctuary question, but we must not waver. Not a pin is to be moved from the foundations of our faith. Truth is still truth. Those who become uncertain will drift into erroneous theories and will finally find themselves infidel in regard to the past evidence we have had of what is truth. The old waymarks must be preserved, that we lose not our bearings." --Letter 395, 1906, p. 4. (To S. M. Cobb, Dec. 25, 1906.)

Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: Aaron] #104080
10/29/08 10:01 PM
10/29/08 10:01 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Florida, USA
Graduated in 82', the dean was happy to see me go... dunno

Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: Rick H] #104113
11/01/08 03:19 PM
11/01/08 03:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thank you, Rosangela, for the quotes. If pantheism is true, then there is no need for a literal sanctuary in heaven.

Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: scott] #104287
11/07/08 04:04 AM
11/07/08 04:04 AM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: scott
Ford taught that justification is a legal acquittal that happened 2000 years ago when Christ stepped into the place of humanity and suffered their punishment for sin. This is the evangelical view of the atonement, but Adventist literature has never taught it.
Ford made righteousness by faith justification alone, excluding sanctification from the Gospel, which is held by many in the church still, laity and theologians/pastors.

The British SDA church newsletter, The Messenger, had a piece maybe 12 years ago on its current issues page about righteousness by faith, written by a senior, British pastor: clarifying the topic, he wrote that justification is a legal status - no mention was made of the "experience of justification" (see 1976 Palmdale consensus statement in the Review & Herald), the rebirth, thus implicitly presenting Fordian teaching. His idea is in Adventist print in various places...perhaps even by Goldstein sometimes (I'll try to source the quote).

Quote:
Justification is something that happens in the mind when a person is converted (set right) to Jesus. 2000 years ago Christ did everything necessary for our justification, but what He did only benefits those who believe. Justification is being set right with God in our mind.
Conversion is being set right? Conversion is a legal status??? No, pardon - tho' legal - is the experience of removal of guilt, and conversion is a heart change! Being "set right" must happen before we come to faith else there would be no grace at all (Rom 5:2)!

Legal standing was established at Calvary, for Christ is our justification - our legal standing, and "what he did" benefits the whole world by grace, for faith once we believe. Our legal standing is a move by God; conversion is our choice: grace is sovereign in saving the world, so us being set right with God was Jesus' move by his reconciliatory, substitutionary death.

Sanctification is indeed the required life of those justified by faith, unlike evangelical & Fordian theology.

Quote:
Jesus didn’t come to change God’s mind about us, which is what the evangelical justification teaches, but He came to change our mind about God.

scott

Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: Colin] #104292
11/07/08 04:35 AM
11/07/08 04:35 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Being "set right" is something which happens as a result of responding to the revelation of God:

Quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)


Waggoner taught that justified meant being made righteous, not as a legal status, but as a change of heart. I can back this up if you wish, but I assume you're familiar with this.

Quote:
Sanctification is indeed the required life of those justified by faith, unlike evangelical & Fordian theology.


Sanctification is the fruit of the one whose heart has been transformed. Saying it's a "required life" sounds like it's not a natural result of being justified. All who are justified are sanctified, providing they don't return to a life of sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Alpha and Omega of Apostasy.... [Re: Tom] #104304
11/07/08 03:02 PM
11/07/08 03:02 PM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
I was being too concise last night - it was late: being set right with God is both an accomplishment of grace in Christ (God reconciling the world to himself in Christ) and our status as believers: it is not the definition of conversion, though, since conversion is an experience not a legal matter alone.

"Required life" is true in its context, as is "fruit": the cause and effect expression of "fruit" and the strict inclusion of sanctification in the Gospel experience of salvation expressed as "required" are both aspects of truth. That perfect obedience is included in our salvation from sin is the dispute, and I'm emphasising its inclusion.

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