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sodom and gomorrah #104326
11/08/08 05:31 AM
11/08/08 05:31 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
can anyone prove from the bible that sodom and gomorrah were destroyed for homosexuality?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: sodom and gomorrah [Re: teresaq] #104328
11/08/08 08:20 AM
11/08/08 08:20 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
I will not attempt to say this will "prove" anything, for proof is a thing of the mind more than any other, and as the adage says, "A man convinced against his will will be of the same opinion still." Much of this is how a person chooses to look at it. However, to me, the argument is sufficiently convincing.

To begin with, let me point out that it is to be expected that such a sin as this, being of a sexual nature, would be couched in less than plain language. There is no virtue in beholding sin, though there is virtue in recognizing it enough to avoid it. The Bible makes it clear enough, without any more detail than necessary for us to identify the sin. Even when it is not sin, sexual intimacy is usually cloaked in terms like "know" or "lie with."

Now, notice the subject of this text:
Originally Posted By: The Bible

But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. (Genesis 13:13, KJV)

The Bible might have simply said "Sodom was a wicked city," or, "the people of Sodom were wicked;" but here it draws our attention to the men specifically: "the men of Sodom were wicked."

Here, once again, the use of "sodom" is focused on the menfolk:
Originally Posted By: The Bible

There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. (Deuteronomy 23:17, KJV)



And here, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha are specifically referenced in terms of sexual sin.
Originally Posted By: The Bible

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7, KJV)

Notice especially the mention of "going after strange flesh." Paul, while not specifically mentioning Sodom, speaks of the sin of homosexuality, and how strange it is:

Originally Posted By: The Bible

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (Romans 1:26-27, KJV)



Here it defines their sin as being a very serious one:
Originally Posted By: The Bible

And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; (Genesis 18:20, KJV)


However, I think the most convincing part is the story of the angels' visit to Sodom. God would not want us to think that He had arbitrarily destroyed Sodom for some small reason. It is proper that we should know the reason, that we might also take warning and turn away from the same sin ourselves.

Here is the story:
Originally Posted By: The Bible

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. (Genesis 19:1-13, KJV)


In summary, I would point out three things: 1) Sodom is referred to by its "sin" in the singular [see Genesis 18:20, Lamentations 4:6]; 2) there is not one text in all of scripture referring to Sodom's sin in the plural form "sins"; and 3) the only sin clearly portrayed in the above story is that of homosexuality. These points, taken together, give us a clear picture of exactly which sin it was that provoked God to such an action against Sodom.

I hope that helps.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: sodom and gomorrah [Re: Green Cochoa] #104331
11/08/08 11:20 AM
11/08/08 11:20 AM
Tammy Roesch  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 562
North East OHIO
Thank you for that good study, Green Cochoa. Really appreciate that!


Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69}

Re: sodom and gomorrah [Re: Tammy Roesch] #104356
11/08/08 10:41 PM
11/08/08 10:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
The most disturbing thing about this story is the fact Lot was willing to give his daughters to the wicked as trade for the traveling wayfarers.

Re: sodom and gomorrah [Re: Mountain Man] #104386
11/09/08 02:15 AM
11/09/08 02:15 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The most disturbing thing about this story is the fact Lot was willing to give his daughters to the wicked as trade for the traveling wayfarers.

I think he was likely prompted by the Holy Spirit to offer this, so that we would have a clear record of just how vile the men had become--rejecting this in lieu of the "strange." I am certain that the angels would have been just as interested in saving the daughters as they were for saving Lot.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: sodom and gomorrah [Re: Green Cochoa] #104426
11/09/08 07:01 PM
11/09/08 07:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I tend to think Lot was a pretty messed up man. Yes, he possessed many admirable traits, but the fact he was willing to toss his daughters to the lustful mob indicates he wasn't perfect. Also, the fact he got drunk and fathered children with his daughters is incredibly messed up. Those children grew up to produce some of the bitterest enemies of God's chosen people.

Re: sodom and gomorrah [Re: Mountain Man] #104455
11/09/08 11:07 PM
11/09/08 11:07 PM
Servant  Offline
Regular Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 75
USA
Thank you Green Cochoa, for a clear, Biblical explanation!

Re: sodom and gomorrah [Re: Green Cochoa] #104472
11/10/08 05:23 AM
11/10/08 05:23 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I will not attempt to say this will "prove" anything, for proof is a thing of the mind more than any other, and as the adage says, "A man convinced against his will will be of the same opinion still." Much of this is how a person chooses to look at it. However, to me, the argument is sufficiently convincing.

To begin with, let me point out that it is to be expected that such a sin as this, being of a sexual nature, would be couched in less than plain language. There is no virtue in beholding sin, though there is virtue in recognizing it enough to avoid it. The Bible makes it clear enough, without any more detail than necessary for us to identify the sin. Even when it is not sin, sexual intimacy is usually cloaked in terms like "know" or "lie with."

Now, notice the subject of this text:
Originally Posted By: The Bible

But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. (Genesis 13:13, KJV)

The Bible might have simply said "Sodom was a wicked city," or, "the people of Sodom were wicked;" but here it draws our attention to the men specifically: "the men of Sodom were wicked."

Here, once again, the use of "sodom" is focused on the menfolk:
Originally Posted By: The Bible

There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. (Deuteronomy 23:17, KJV)



And here, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha are specifically referenced in terms of sexual sin.
Originally Posted By: The Bible

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7, KJV)

Notice especially the mention of "going after strange flesh." Paul, while not specifically mentioning Sodom, speaks of the sin of homosexuality, and how strange it is:

Originally Posted By: The Bible

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (Romans 1:26-27, KJV)



Here it defines their sin as being a very serious one:
Originally Posted By: The Bible

And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; (Genesis 18:20, KJV)


However, I think the most convincing part is the story of the angels' visit to Sodom. God would not want us to think that He had arbitrarily destroyed Sodom for some small reason. It is proper that we should know the reason, that we might also take warning and turn away from the same sin ourselves.

Here is the story:
Originally Posted By: The Bible

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. (Genesis 19:1-13, KJV)


In summary, I would point out three things: 1) Sodom is referred to by its "sin" in the singular [see Genesis 18:20, Lamentations 4:6]; 2) there is not one text in all of scripture referring to Sodom's sin in the plural form "sins"; and 3) the only sin clearly portrayed in the above story is that of homosexuality. These points, taken together, give us a clear picture of exactly which sin it was that provoked God to such an action against Sodom.

I hope that helps.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


that certainly was some reasoning to come to that conclusion. what if we did away with most of the human reasoning and logic and looked at the bible alone?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: sodom and gomorrah [Re: teresaq] #106522
12/25/08 03:51 PM
12/25/08 03:51 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,123
Nova Scotia, Canada
Originally Posted By: teresaq

that certainly was some reasoning to come to that conclusion. what if we did away with most of the human reasoning and logic and looked at the bible alone?

Wasn't looking at the Bible alone done here in Green Cochoa's post?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: sodom and gomorrah [Re: Daryl] #106530
12/25/08 07:11 PM
12/25/08 07:11 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl Fawcett
Originally Posted By: teresaq

that certainly was some reasoning to come to that conclusion. what if we did away with most of the human reasoning and logic and looked at the bible alone?

Wasn't looking at the Bible alone done here in Green Cochoa's post?


yes, he did use a lot of bible in his post. now if we took away his words what would we get?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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