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THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
#110642
03/28/09 01:07 PM
03/28/09 01:07 PM
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OP
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 449
England
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I was reading something on the thread about QUESTIONS ON DOCTRINES about the Trinity and whatever SDAs are supposed to belief about that and wondering, how would that affect our thinking, our lifes, our way we relate to God?
What Im asking is that in a PRACTICAL way, does it really matter? and Im SURE it does somehow but just wondering how?
Jn:15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
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Re: THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
[Re: Claudia Thompson]
#110670
03/28/09 09:58 PM
03/28/09 09:58 PM
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To me it matters in a practical way because if Jesus is different than me or God in any way it means I cannot hope to imitate His sinless example and be like God.
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Re: THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#111034
04/01/09 02:02 AM
04/01/09 02:02 AM
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There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body or parts, ......"http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1817" United Methodist Church
THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH
With Scripture Proofs Adopted by the Ministers and Messengers of the general assembly which met in London in 1689
Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity
.... a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, .... Christ emphatically impressed upon them the fact that they could see the Father by faith alone. God cannot be seen in external form by any human being. Christ alone can represent the Father to humanity. This representation the disciples had been privileged to behold for over three years. {HM, July 1, 1897 par. 4}
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." .... {EW 54.2} As Elder Daniells took up residence in Battle Creek as the leader of the church following the General Conference of 1901, he found the teachings of pantheism rampant. For years he had been more or less isolated in Australia. He was amazed to hear the talk of God in flowers, in trees, in humankind. The expression was constantly heard: The acorn falls to the ground and a tree springs up. It was argued that one must say there is a tree maker in the tree. It was declared that the Creator, whatever He might be like, was in the things that were made, and some boldly said that there is no great Being sitting on the throne in heaven, but God is in all nature. {WV 437.2} Christ, the Light of the world, veiled the dazzling splendor of His divinity and came to live as a man among men, that they might, without being consumed, become acquainted with their Creator. No man has seen God at any time except as He is revealed through Christ. {CCh 75.4}
Christ came to teach human beings what God desires them to know. In the heavens above, in the earth, in the broad waters of the ocean, we see the handiwork of God. All created things testify to His power, His wisdom, His love. But not from the stars or the ocean or the cataract can we learn of the personality of God as it is revealed in Christ. {CCh 75.5}
God saw that a clearer revelation than nature was needed to portray both His personality and His character. He sent His Son into the world to reveal, so far as could be endured by human sight, the nature and the attributes of the invisible God. {CCh 75.6}
Had God desired to be represented as dwelling personally in the things of nature—in the flower, the tree, the spire of grass—would not Christ have spoken of this to His disciples when He was on the earth? But never in the teaching of Christ is God thus spoken of. Christ and the apostles taught clearly the truth of the existence of a personal God. {CCh 75.7} The Personality of God.--He [Christ] represented God not as an essence that pervaded nature, but as a God who has a personality. Christ was the express image of His Father's person; and He came to our world to restore in man God's moral image, in order that man, although fallen, might through obedience to God's commandments become enstamped with the divine image and character--adorned with the beauty of divine loveliness (MS 24, 1891). {7BC 921.9} The word of the Lord has guided our steps since the passing of the time in 1844. We have searched the Scriptures; we have built solidly; and we have not had to tear up our foundations and put in new timbers. There is always safety in presenting a "Thus saith the Lord." We must put our trust in a "Thus saith the Lord" and be well established in the faith.--Letter 24, 1907, p. 3. (To A. G. Daniells, Feb. 4, 1907.) {2MR 186.1}
Ever since going to the Berrien Springs meeting [1904], my work has been continuous and taxing. While there I saw that which we shall have to meet in the future. The only way in which we can advance in our work is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Book that contains the will of God concerning us, is in our hands. A blessed unity will be enjoyed by those who are indeed children of God. They will not, by their words and acts, lead anyone to doubt in regard to the distinct personality of God, or in regard to the sanctuary and its ministry. {2MR 186.2}
We all need to keep the subject of the sanctuary in mind. God forbid that the clatter of words coming from human lips should lessen the belief of our people in the truth that there is a sanctuary in heaven, and that a pattern of this sanctuary was once built on this earth. God desires His people to become familiar with this pattern, keeping ever before their minds the heavenly sanctuary, where God is all and in all. We must keep our minds braced by prayer and a study of God's Word, that we may grasp these truths.--Letter 233, 1904, pp. 3, 4. (To E. R. Palmer, July 8, 1904.) {2MR 186.3} if God is not a real "physical" being, there is no need of a throne, or sanctuary. it would also make it possible for pantheism, that God is in all His creation as kellogg taught.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
[Re: teresaq]
#111055
04/01/09 10:38 AM
04/01/09 10:38 AM
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Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019
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Salut Teresa, Thanks for bringing all these quotes here.
As far as I get from the Bible, God is spirit that wants to dwell in us. He is apart and seperate from His creatures.
Panteist :Doctrine that the universe is God and, conversely, that there is no god apart from the substance, forces, and laws manifested in the universe.
Whereas Patheism, believes that we have god in us in the sence he is part of our being.
There's a difference between "dwelling" in a house and being the house.
I can understand the santuary part, because our body is the temple of God and God dwells in us.
However, that's a good question in regards the "throne". Maybe someone will enlighten us on that one.
Blessings
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Re: THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
[Re: Claudia Thompson]
#111057
04/01/09 11:55 AM
04/01/09 11:55 AM
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Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
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I was reading something on the thread about QUESTIONS ON DOCTRINES about the Trinity and whatever SDAs are supposed to belief about that and wondering, how would that affect our thinking, our lifes, our way we relate to God?
What Im asking is that in a PRACTICAL way, does it really matter? and Im SURE it does somehow but just wondering how? Yes I read that thread also, and I'm praying and studying about this as I think this is quite an important Doctrine for we are to "believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God". Acts 8:37. That's the theme of the New Testament -- The Father sent His only Begotten son, Jesus Christ. For sure, we cannot deny that there's two main character in the NT. Some people believes that the Holy Spirit is not a third person, but the omnipresence of the Father or the Son. It is God, because it is God's(The Father or the Son) presence in us. But it is not really another individual. Anyway, I won't go into it, but I find there's a fine line here. I've been raised Catholic, so for me to accept the Trinity is very natural and never considered to view it in any other way. Here's an interesting quote "While no single scriptual passage states fromally the doctrine of the Trinity, it is assumed as a fact by Bible writers...Only by faith can we accept the existence of the Trinity (Adventist Review, Special Issue, Vol.158, no 31, july 1981) What's interesting also and also a red flag for me, that the Trinity doctrine is the foundation of all other doctrines in the Catholic faith. I will bring the quote when I'll find it. Does it Matter? Practical Relevance #1But I ask this person, why would it be the center of their belief? He wasn't sure, but he said that he believed that it introduces "Spiritualism". To me that makes sence, but there must be other reason also. Another thing that raises a red flag is the following quote: This is basically the same view(the "Father" and "Son" relationship in scripture is only role playing, not real) that LeRoy Froom advocates in his book, Movement of Destiny, in an effort to promote Trinitarianism. During the middle 1950'd, while preparing his first book on Seventh-day Adventists, Walter Martin approached the brethren in the General Conderence asking for their official poisition on the Godhead. A Trinitarian position was essential in removing Seventh-day Adventism from the status of being a cult. (see "Adventists and the Trinity" by Roy Allan Anderson, Adventist Review, Sept 8, 1983, p.4) So personally, I want to know who'se up there and only worship the only true God and want to proclaim only His name. I have no interest to worship a false God, and definetly don't want to promote false Gods either. The Bible affirms many times that there's only two persons. 1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Hbr 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The Bible demands that we must worship "The Father and the Son[who] alone are to be exalted."(The Younth's Instructor, July 7, 1898)
Blessings
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Re: THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
[Re: Elle]
#111151
04/02/09 08:05 PM
04/02/09 08:05 PM
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SDA
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Salut Teresa, Thanks for bringing all these quotes here.
As far as I get from the Bible, God is spirit that wants to dwell in us. He is apart and seperate from His creatures.
have you ever studied the seventh-day-adventist beliefs? or perhaps we dont teach all of them......one of our beliefs is that the Father and Christ are both very physical beings, just like us. at least we used to believe that. im not sure how much of the trinity doctrine our church has adopted. Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. now if the Elohiym were some kind of spirit like a vapor or cloud or the wind then wouldnt they have created us and our world after that "image"? instead they created a very material world to fill all our senses. [quote]Panteist :Doctrine that the universe is God and, conversely, that there is no god apart from the substance, forces, and laws manifested in the universe.
Whereas Patheism, believes that we have god in us in the sence he is part of our being.
There's a difference between "dwelling" in a house and being the house.
I can understand the santuary part, because our body is the temple of God and God dwells in us. what is "Patheism" or are you trying to spell something else? this is pantheistic thought: We have here the evidence of a universal presence, an intelligent presence, an all-wise presence, an all-powerful presence, a presence by the aid of which every atom of the universe is kept in touch with every other atom. This force that holds all things together, that is everywhere present, that thrills throughout the whole universe, that acts instantaneously through boundless space, can be nothing else than God Himself. What a wonderful thought that this same God is in us and in everything.—Ibid., p. 83. {5BIO 282.3} However, that's a good question in regards the "throne". Maybe someone will enlighten us on that one. as i said, there was a time seventh day adventists believed in a physical God, not some wispy vapor type thing. we also believe in a real, physical heaven, and a real, physical sanctuary in heaven which the one in the wilderness was patterned after, and a real, physical throne on and is described in ezekiel, for one place.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
[Re: teresaq]
#111153
04/02/09 08:38 PM
04/02/09 08:38 PM
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The SDA Church still does believe in three Persons of the Trinity, two of which have their own physical form. We know that Christ has a human form, however, we haven't really been told what type of beautiful form the Father has.
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Re: THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
[Re: teresaq]
#111155
04/02/09 08:54 PM
04/02/09 08:54 PM
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Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019
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have you ever studied the seventh-day-adventist beliefs? or perhaps we dont teach all of them......one of our beliefs is that the Father and Christ are both very physical beings, just like us.
at least we used to believe that. im not sure how much of the trinity doctrine our church has adopted. I just pulled my 27 doctrines book, and it doesn't say as far as I can see it. I don't know where I got that understanding, but I thought only Jesus had become physical(as what we understand of what physical means in this sinful world, because in heaven it could have a different dimension.) Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. now if the Elohiym were some kind of spirit like a vapor or cloud or the wind then wouldnt they have created us and our world after that "image"? instead they created a very material world to fill all our senses. To me, that doesn't necessarily means physical. It could, but it could not also. We are taught that Jesus was the pillard of fire, and the pillard of cloud, or He appeared as a person or angel in front of Joshua. How can He all be those different forms? Also, if God is restrain as us, in a physical dimension, then how can he be omni-present? I think there's a lot in scripture that wouldn't support that God is physical (as we know of what it means here) argument. [quote]Panteist :Doctrine that the universe is God and, conversely, that there is no god apart from the substance, forces, and laws manifested in the universe.
Whereas Patheism, believes that we have god in us in the sence he is part of our being.
There's a difference between "dwelling" in a house and being the house.
I can understand the santuary part, because our body is the temple of God and God dwells in us. this is pantheistic thought:
We have here the evidence of a universal presence, an intelligent presence, an all-wise presence, an all-powerful presence, a presence by the aid of which every atom of the universe is kept in touch with every other atom. This force that holds all things together, that is everywhere present, that thrills throughout the whole universe, that acts instantaneously through boundless space, can be nothing else than God Himself. What a wonderful thought that this same God is in us and in everything.—Ibid., p. 83. {5BIO 282.3} That's the problem with pantheistic belief, they say that these forces are God Himself, whereas the Bible says that Jesus holds all things together Col 1:17.
Blessings
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Re: THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
[Re: Daryl]
#111157
04/02/09 09:44 PM
04/02/09 09:44 PM
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Died February 12, 2019
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The SDA Church still does believe in three Persons of the Trinity, two of which have their own physical form. We know that Christ has a human form, however, we haven't really been told what type of beautiful form the Father has. Oh, I didn't see your post. I was trying to find where the Church says the Father has a physical form. Do you know where it is? Do we have any Biblical support for it?
Blessings
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Re: THE TRINITY -How does our beliefs on this change our thinking?
[Re: Elle]
#111158
04/02/09 09:47 PM
04/02/09 09:47 PM
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i have to wonder how many converts, not to mention generational adventists, know what the seventh day adventist church believed......... To me, that doesn't necessarily means physical. It could, but it could not also. We are taught that Jesus was the pillard of fire, and the pillard of cloud, or He appeared as a person or angel in front of Joshua. How can He all be those different forms? no, Jesus was neither the pillar of cloud, nor fire. pantheism/spiritualism. Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
Exo 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people. Exo 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, What a wonderful thought that this same God is in us and in everything elle: That's the problem with pantheistic belief, they say that these forces are God Himself, whereas the Bible says that Jesus holds all things together Col 1:17. you missed the part of God in us and in everything. that also is pantheism. it is possible if God is some kind of a spirit instead of a spiritual Being. the angels are also spiritual beings. Also, if God is restrain as us, in a physical dimension, then how can he be omni-present? I think there's a lot in scripture that wouldn't support that God is physical (as we know of what it means here) argument. i will post a pioneers bible proofs with this one in a separate post.
Last edited by teresaq; 04/02/09 09:49 PM.
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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