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Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10460
11/16/03 05:11 AM
11/16/03 05:11 AM
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OP
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Naches, WA
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WHY DID JOHN WEEP? Knowing this will help define the time for both the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets. Our pastor's comments on the below include: quote:
"Great message! Thank you. You've got the right perspective."
Read it, but don't weep. Rejoice that we have a Saviour to intercede and save.
Comments will be much appreciated. As Solomon said, “Where no COUNSEL is, the people fall: but in the multitude of COUNSELORS there is safety.” Proverbs 11:14.
Stan
------------------------------------
Why did John Weep? Because there was "NO MAN" to "stand in the gap" and "intercede" for sinners (written in the book) who have accepted God's promise to both forgive AND save.
Since ALL HAVE SINNED, (Romans 3:23), God must DESTROY ALL IF there is NO MAN to “stand in the gap” for the people: quote:
“The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully. And I SOUGHT FOR A MAN among them, that should make up the hedge, and STAND IN THE GAP before Me for the land, that I should not DESTROY it: BUT I FOUND NONE. Therefore have I poured out Mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, said the Lord GOD.” Ezekiel 22:29-31.
But there’s an OT prophecy that God will provide that missing MAN:
quote:
“Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands far away; For truth has stumbled in the street, And uprightness cannot enter. Yes, truth is lacking; And he who turns aside from evil makes himself a prey. Now the LORD saw, And it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice. And He saw that there was NO MAN (to stand in the gap), And was astonished that there was NO ONE TO INTERCEDE; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him, And His righteousness upheld Him. He put on righteousness like a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head; And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing And wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle. According to their deeds, so He will repay, Wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; To the coastlands He will make recompense. So they will fear the name of the LORD from the west And His glory from the rising of the sun, For He will come like a rushing stream Which the wind of the LORD drives. ‘A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,’ declares the LORD.” Isaiah 59:14-20 nasb
As in the above reference, Christ is shown again (below) as THE ONLY ONE who can STAND IN THE GAP and) both REDEEM and DESTROY: quote:
“For the day of vengeance is in Mine heart, AND the year of My redeemed is come. And I looked, and there was NO ONE to help; and I wondered that there was NO ONE to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought SALVATION unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.” Isaiah 63:4-6.
Now we come to Revelation 5 and ask again, WHY DID JOHN WEEP? There’s a SEARCH FOR A MAN TO STAND IN THE GAP between those who claimed allegiance to the true God AND THEIR JUST REWARD. As already stated, this is essential because “ALL have sinned.” Romans 3:23. And from the prior references it is evident that ALL would be destroyed IF “NO MAN” could be found to stand in the gap. THIS IS the ONLY common sense reason why JOHN WAS WEEPING. (Compare Ezekiel 9:8). Note also the reasons why CHRIST IS THE ONLY ONE FOUND WORTHY TO INTERCEDE:
quote:
Revelation 5:1-10 nasb:
1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "WHO IS WORTHY to open the book and to break its seals?"
3 And NO ONE in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
4 Then I began to weep greatly (WHY???) BECAUSE NO ONE was found WORTHY to open the book or to look into it; (NO ONE to STAND IN THE GAP and INTERVENE for God’s people. A SEALED BOOK MEANS THE RECORD REMAINS—SINS CANNOT BE BLOTTED OUT!),
5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the LION that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, HAS OVERCOME so as to open the book and its seven seals."
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a LAMB standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, "WORTHY are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and PURCHASED for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. (Jesus is the “One lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.” James 4:12.)
10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Before Christ the LAMB takes the book, it is simply called “the book of life”: Philippians 4:3 & Revelation 3:5.
AFTER Christ the LAMB takes the book, it is called “the book of life OF THE LAMB slain from the foundation of the world.” Revelation 13:8. And “THE LAMB's book of life.” Revelation 21:27.
SO WHEN DOES CHRIST TAKE THE BOOK OF LIFE FROM HIS FATHER?
Prayerful study will give us the answer. Did He take that book and begin to open it at the start of His priestly ministry, or at the start of the investigative judgment? How about at the end of the investigation process?
Consider this: The Books of heaven were not OPENED until 1844. So Christ did NOT take the book of life and open it at the beginning of His priestly ministry. NOR DID HE DO SO AT THE BEGINNING OF THE Investigative Judgment when “the judgment was set AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED.” Daniel 7:10. That opening of the books, with God the Father in charge, is for INVESTIGATION ONLY. quote:
“For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son...And has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.” John 5:22, 27.
quote:
“Christ has been made our Judge. The Father is not the Judge. The angels are not. He who took humanity upon Himself, and in this world lived a perfect life, is to judge us. He only can be our Judge.” 9T 185.
But Daniel 7:13-14 shows Christ coming at some later point in time TO TAKE TITLE TO HIS KINGDOM—AND THAT TITLE IS THE BOOK OF LIFE with the names of those in His eternal kingdom.
So it is at THE END OF THE INVESTIGATION PROCESS that Christ takes the book and blots out either sins or names. Sealed with 7 seals means the record is complete. Nothing has been changed or removed. Only Christ can do that, and He does so AFTER the investigation:
quote:
“Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be BLOTTED OUT until AFTER the judgment at which their cases are to be INVESTIGATED.” GC 485.
“When the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, THEN the sins of the repentant soul who received the grace of Christ and has overcome through the blood of the Lamb, WILL BE REMOVED from the records of heaven, and will be placed upon Satan, the scapegoat, the originator of sin, and be remembered no more against him forever. The sins of the overcomers will be blotted out of the books of record, but their names will be retained on the book of life.” EGW in ST 5-16-1895.
Compare that with what Peter said: quote:
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, WHEN the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” Acts. 3:19.
The court sits in Daniel 7:9-10 to BEGIN the INVESTIGATION process; but in Revelation 4 the court is ALREADY seated as their work is about to come to a close.
That INVESTIGATION COURT, with God the Father presiding, IS NOT INVOLVED IN THE BLOTTING OUT OF SINS OR NAMES FROM THE RECORDS. ONLY CHRIST CAN DO THAT - AND HE DOES SO AFTER TAKING THE BOOK FROM HIS FATHER:
Unsealing of the book by Christ was still IN THE FUTURE when Ellen White wrote the following:
quote:
“...the priests joined with the ignorant mob in declaring passionately, ‘His blood be on us, and on our children.’ Thus the Jewish leaders made their choice. Their decision was registered in the book which John saw in the hand of Him that sat upon the throne, the book which no man could open. In all its vindictiveness this decision will appear before them in the day when this book is unsealed by the Lion of the tribe of Judah.” COL 293-294.
This is “the book where all things are written.” 6T 149; 7BC 987.
quote:
“Christ HIMSELF will decide who are worthy to dwell with the family of heaven. He will judge every man according to his words and his works.” COL 74.
WHEN DOES THIS TAKE PLACE? During the final EVENTS in the CLOSE OF PROBATION process, just before Jesus comes:
quote:
“The judgments upon Jerusalem were a symbol of THE EVENTS of Christ's coming to judgment in the last day, when before him shall be gathered all nations.” TM 232.
Have those events already begun?
quote:
“God cannot forbear much longer. Already His judgments are beginning to fall on some places, and soon His signal displeasure will be felt in other places. There will be A SERIES OF EVENTS (Revelation 6?) revealing that God is master of the situation. The truth will be proclaimed in clear, unmistakable language.” 9T 96.
We now see the truth going rapidly worldwide. This is comparable to the “conquering” as the first seal is broken:
quote:
“Clad in the armor of Christ's righteousness, the church is to enter upon her final conflict. ‘Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners’ (Song of Solomon 6:10), she is to go forth into all the world, conquering and to conquer.” PK 725.
We may very well soon see “peace taken from the earth” in a major way, as when the second seal is broken.
quote:
“EVENTS COME IN ORDER. War, and rumors of war, sword, famine, and pestilence are first to shake the powers of earth, then the voice of God will shake the sun, moon, and stars, and this earth also.” EW 41.
Compare that with EVENTS in Revelation 6 as seals numbers 2, 3, 4, and 6 are broken. As the second seal is broken, the rider on a red horse is granted to “take peace from the earth.” Then comes a symbol of famine as the third seal is broken; followed by sword, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts when the fourth seal is broken. God calls those “My four severe judgments.” Ezekiel 14:21.
Final events are right upon us. We need to be spiritually prepared and awake to the times.
StanMcCluskey@cs.com 11-10-2003
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Re: Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10461
01/03/04 06:56 PM
01/03/04 06:56 PM
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I just saw your post and read it. These are exactly my sentiments. Everyone on the forum would be wise to study this carefully. Thanks Stan.
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Re: Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10462
01/04/04 06:49 PM
01/04/04 06:49 PM
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Hi Mark, Thanks for your statement of support. I cannot, however, accept the apparent Shepherd's Rod type conclusion in your www.ezekielsite.com, where you seem to conclude that the 144,000 will be gathered to Mt Zion on this earth before Jesus comes. That conclusion is neither biblical nor based on SOP. I recognize that what I have written about Revelation 4-11 is close to both SR and current Protestant teachings; but there are significant differences. I do NOT agree with either of those groups in their conclusions. I also believe that an understanding of these chapters will become clearer as the events unfold; and it will be imoortant NOT to be misled into accepting either the Shepherd's Rod or Protestant Tribulation interpretations. That's why we should be studying Rev 4-11 more carefully now. Frank Holbrook wrote the following in the intro to Symposium on Revelation, Book II by the BRI DARCOM: quote:
Adventist teaching and preaching from the book of Revelation has always drawn heavily from its last half (chaps. 12-22).
I respectfully disagree with the DARCOM Book I conclusions, which are strongly based on a "chiastic structure" for interpretation, rather than a comparison of Scripture with Scripture.
I have wondered since academy days why all the symbolism in Revelation 6 was ignored, and only the colors of the horses applied to the condition of the church in different periods of time.
As I read SOP comments, I was led to a search for OT Scripture references about the four horses, the four winds, and the various signs in nature. Then when I read Rev 4:1 in the NASB, I knew there was a reasonable HISTORIC tie between chapters 3 and 4. quote:
AFTER THESE THINGSI looked, and behold a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place AFTER THESE THINGS."
"After these things" can REASONABLY be interpreted to mean AT THE END OF THE LAODICEAN PERIOD, AS THE IG IS DRAWING TO A CLOSE. This naturally let to more Bible and SOP study.
I encourage others to independently study this section of Revelation in the same way.
=========
URL Link correction only - Daryl ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif)
[ January 04, 2004, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]
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Re: Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10463
01/04/04 10:11 PM
01/04/04 10:11 PM
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quote:
Stan McCluskey posted:
Thanks for your statement of support. I cannot, however, accept the apparent Shepherd's Rod type conclusion in your www.ezekielsite.com, where you seem to conclude that the 144,000 will be gathered to Mt Zion on this earth before Jesus comes. That conclusion is neither biblical nor based on SOP.
What and where, under what sub-heading, in Mark's site did you read that caused you to post the above as part of your post to Mark?
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Re: Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10464
01/04/04 11:35 PM
01/04/04 11:35 PM
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OP
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Posts: 148
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Daryl, I sincerely hope my conclusions are wrong; but the comparison I see is shown below: Click on http://www.ezekielsite.com/ Then click on the side section titled: Ezekiel's Temple Then click on: The Corporate and the Individual Relationship Illustrated quote:
In contrast to this, regarding Solomon’s temple, Hebrews 12:18,19,22 states: “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:... But ye are come unto mount Zion...”. In this last passage, Paul urges his readers to recognize the superiority of the New Covenant ministry of Christ which is typified by Mount Zion. He contrasts Christ’s ministry typified by Mount Zion with the Levitical ministry typified by Mount Sinai.
Mike goes on to explain the difference between the Sinai tent sanctuary and the "ZION" temple of Solomon, with the conclusion: quote:
The connection of the latter rain and the scattering of the fire to the church is again repeated in the word picture we have at the start of Revelation 14. The first fruits of Christ’s labours, the 144,000 are presented before God, standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion sealed in their foreheads singing the song of victory, the song of Moses and of the Lamb. Revelation 14:1-5. Thus the transition between temples is confirmed again from the, Davidic furniture arrangement to the prophetic, apocalyptic arrangement. The tribes of Israel will be presented before God on Mt. Zion without fault.
But that is NOT the difference given by Paul. as clearly shown by words left out of the above quote, Paul is CONTRASTING THE EARTHLY WITH THE HEAVENLY:
quote:
For ye are NOT come unto the mount (on earth) that might be TOUCHED, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,...But ye are come unto mount Zion (IN HEAVEN), and unto the city of the living God, THE HEAVENLY Jerusalem,...
The Shepherd's Rod literature teaches: quote:
"Let it be carefully noted that in his vision, John saw the 144,000 stand NOT on Mount Zion in heaven, but upon earth, for had it been otherwise, he would not say 'and I heard a voice from heaven.'" - "Behold the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David" (1937), p4 Thus Mr. Houteff would have his followers believe that John, in Revelation 14:1-5; 15:2-3, saw the 144,000 organized and functioning as a special and distinct group upon earth, in this present world, before the close of probationary time.
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Re: Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10465
01/05/04 10:59 AM
01/05/04 10:59 AM
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I don't want us to get off topic, but I'll put a brief note here on what I meant on my site:
Regarding the 144,000, when I say the saints are gathered at Mount Zion, I am thinking of Revelation 14 which is where they are pictured for us. This is not to suggest that they are or will be there on earth in any physical sense before Christ returns. I'm suggesting that the 144,000 are made up of saints not only from the final generation but also from those that have fallen asleep back to Adam.
In addition, I'm persuaded that Christ's ministry in heaven as portrayed in Ezekiel's temple goes into effect at the beginning of Revelation 14. I'd like to stimulate interest and discussion of Ezekiel's temple because it is apocalytic. If there is any interest in this or the 144,000 I'll be glad to take it up in a separate thread.
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Re: Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10466
01/05/04 11:03 AM
01/05/04 11:03 AM
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Regarding Revelation 4, I agree again Stan.
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Re: Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10467
01/06/04 04:53 AM
01/06/04 04:53 AM
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OP
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Thanks for the brief explanation, Mark; and it is now evident your interpretation is different from that of the Shepherd's Rod group. Pardon my inference. However, I still disagree with your conclusions as stated above. I understand the 144,000 to be taken from the last generation of the living, and that Christ's ministry in heaven began long before the Rev 14 scenes. I suggest reading, "Who Are The 144,000?" by Doug Batchelor. http://www.nisbett.com/library/printer/ir-who_are_the_144000.html
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Re: Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10468
01/07/04 08:40 AM
01/07/04 08:40 AM
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Stan, one of the things I've been stressing in other threads is that the ministry of Christ that results in character perfection has been available not only since 1844 but since the fall of Adam. I say that the work of the Investigative Judgement reaches backwards similar to the way the cross reaches backwards and those who lived and died prior to it benefited from it.
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Re: Why did John WEEP? Rev 5:4
#10469
01/07/04 05:02 PM
01/07/04 05:02 PM
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Mark, I fully agree that character perfection ("right actions from pure unselfish motives" and not a pharisaical perfection) has been available as a spiritual growth experience through Christ and the Holy Spirit since the fall of Adam. If this were not so, we would not read about translation of Enoch and Elijah. But we need to continually behold Christ and be filled with the Holy Spirit, so our thoughts, words, and actions will become more Christlike: quote:
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. MH 180.
As for "the work of the Investigative Judgement reaching backwards similar to the way the cross reaches backwards and those who lived and died prior to it benefited from it;" I also agree.
NO sins are blotted from the records until AFTER the investigative judgment. This includes the records of Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and those who went to heaven with Jesus.
But those people IN HEAVEN make it evident that the INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT is for the benefit of CREATED BEINGS, and not to inform God of anything.
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