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Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: dedication] #122160
12/11/09 04:57 AM
12/11/09 04:57 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: dedication
How about Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

People say the Sabbath was given to the Jews in the wilderness. But that text says the Sabbath was created for mankind.


This is a good one, even not so strong as Mat. 24:20, some one can reject it by saying, surely it is for man, because Jews were men, and not goats.

In His love

Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: dedication] #122161
12/11/09 05:39 AM
12/11/09 05:39 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: dedication
How about:
Therefore a Sabbath Rest Remains for the people of God. (Hebs. 4:9)

The Sabbath continues. The verb "remains" is "(apoleipetai) which literally means "has been left."
The Greek word translated "rest" in every other passage throughout Hebrews 3 and 4 is "katapausis." The word for "rest" in Hebrews 4:9 is (sabbatismos). The term (sabbatismos) is seen in the writings of Plutarch, Justin, Epiphanius, and others, and each time the term denotes the observance of the Sabbath. Therefore the text is saying, that Sabbath obsevance remains for the people of God.


This one is not good enough, because the text doesn't say about a "day", more over Sabbath the 7th day, but about a rest, just "rest", that could mean of any other day as well.

In Hebrew 4:10 - KJV, For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

TR , ο γαρ εισελθων εις την καταπαυσιν αυτου και αυτος κατεπαυσεν απο των εργων αυτου ωσπερ απο των ιδιων ο θεος
Translit, ho gar eiselthôn eis tên katapausin autou kai autos katepausen apo tôn ergôn autou hôsper apo tôn idiôn ho theos

Compare with The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (ORTHJBC)
"For whoever has entered into the menukhah of Hashem has also rested from his ma'asim, just as Hashem rested from his."

In Transit Interlinear does 'ωσπερ - hôsper' connected to the day Sabbath or to the rest of work? The 7th day is Sabbath, Saturday is Sabbath, but Sabbath is not Saturday alone.

In Hebrew 4:11 - it is not sabbatisnos but "katapausis" meaning a place of rest not a day of rest. Compare with Acts 7:49.

In His love

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 12/23/09 12:01 AM. Reason: Enabled HTML in post
Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: James Saptenno] #122165
12/11/09 05:57 PM
12/11/09 05:57 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Does the law still valid?

Christ is the end of the law

On the cross he ended the law of Moses.

A new law was given to Christianity, the law of love.

Why does we say, the Ten Commandments still continue and didn't end at the cross?

Torah consist of 613 mitzvoh, all has been nailed to the cross, is there any text saying that the Ten Commandments is an exception? Does the Jews realize that there are two laws in the Old Testament, same as SDA's view of the law?

This argument is completely absurd, James. If the law had been abolished, the Sabbath certainly would have been abolished with it.

But Jesus didn't know anything about abolishing the law, for He said, "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them." According to the interpretation you are presenting, Christ would have said, "I have not come to abolish them, but to abolish them." Besides, if "fulfill" means to abolish, when Christ said, "For thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness," this means He abolished righteousness, since He fulfilled it. What could be more absurd?

Paul also didn't know that the commandments had been abolished at the cross, for he quoted several of them (Rom. 13:9, Gal. 5:14, Rom. 7:7, Eph. 6:2).

And the news that the law had been abolished hadn't yet reached James: "If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself,' you do well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. For he who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' said also, 'Do not kill.' If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty" (James 2:8-12).

And alas, John also didn't know anything about the law having been abolished: "For sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

And by the way, the word "end" means also "objective", "goal."

Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: James Saptenno] #122172
12/12/09 01:07 AM
12/12/09 01:07 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,438
Canada
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno


Does the law still valid?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So, the law defines sin.
The wages of sin is death, thus no one is saved by keeping the law because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Christ is the only source of salvation.
But what now? Now that we have grace?
Do we do away with the law and engage in sin?
No -- emphatically not.
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

Christ is the end of the law


The law is not an end in itself, it can't bring salvation.
The law shows people their need of salvation by grace, through faith. And the ceremonies shadowed forth Christ as fulfilling the righteousness, and bearing the curse of the broken law.

The law is not destroyed, nor the intention of the Lawgiver disappointed. The cross demonstrate to every member of the human family that the law of God is immutable, and that it can NOT be put aside or nullified to save any transgressor. If God could have changed one iota of His law, Jesus need not have come to our world to suffer and die; but He who was equal with the Father came and suffered the wages of sin, even the death of the cross, to give man another probation.

Christ did not come to release us from obedience to His law, and now we are free to sin. And what is sin? The definition given in God's word is, "Sin is the transgression of the law;" and the apostle Paul declares, "Where no law is, there is no transgression." The law is the great standard that will measure every man's character.
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

On the cross he ended the law of Moses. (all has been nailed to the cross,)


No, the law was not nailed to the cross --
Christ, who bore our sins, was nailed to the cross.

Read Colossians in context:

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature" (vs 13)

Without Christ we were dead -- with no hope, enslaved in sin, with no way out.

But God made you alive with Christ."

How does He do that? How does He give us life and deliver us from death?
Paul's next words tell us!
"He forgave us all our sins"

What was that again? How did He deliver us from death and bring us to life? By getting rid of the law that condemned us? NO! NO! He forgave us our sins, and how was this possible -- this forgiveness?

"He forgave us all our sins; having canceled the written record with it's legal demands which stood against us."

"Cheirographon" was used to show a "certificate of indebtedness". So we could read the verse to say: he canceled the written record of our debts.
What regulations or legal decree is held against sinners? The Bible tells us the wages of sin is death. That is the legal decree— you sin— you will die! That is the wage for sin.

How was it possible for God to forgive us our sins, canceling the record with it's legal decree against us? The verse continues, "He took it away by nailing it to the cross."

So what was nailed to the cross?
What was it that was against us, what was it that opposed us, what was it that stood in the way of life for us?

We must ask ourselves, did God bring forgiveness to mankind by destroying that which points out sin, or by taking upon Himself our sins and paying the penalty in our behalf? The Bible makes this clear enough.

In 1 Cor. 15:3 "Christ died for OUR SINS according to the scriptures."

Peter adds; "Christ in his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness, by whose stripes we were healed." (1 Peter 2:24)


Originally Posted By: James Saptenno


A new law was given to Christianity, the law of love.


No, the law of love wasn't new.
God's law IS love -- it always was and always will be.

Deut. 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deut. 11:13 Hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Lev. 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.





Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

Why does we say, the Ten Commandments still continue and didn't end at the cross?

Torah consist of 613 mitzvoh, all has been nailed to the cross, is there any text saying that the Ten Commandments is an exception? Does the Jews realize that there are two laws in the Old Testament, same as SDA's view of the law?

In His love


Scripture says of Christ:
he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
The blood shed as the sacrifices were offered pointed to the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. All the typical offerings were fulfilled in Him.

Surely you don't want people free now to:
lie, steal, kill, be dishonest, coveteous, with no regard for faithfulness to God, one's marriage partner, or associates, would you?

To say it's "just love" now, puts one in the realm of "moral ethics" or -- whatever seems like "loving" thing to do at the moment, kind of thing.

But God's law of love has guidelines -- his commandments.



In Hebrews we see that the sacrificial/priestly rituals are "fadding away"

but one thing REMAINS

Therefore a Sabbath Rest Remains for the people of God. (Hebs. 4:9)

The Sabbath continues. The verb "remains" is "(apoleipetai) which literally means "has been left."
The Greek word translated "rest" in every other passage throughout Hebrews 3 and 4 is "katapausis." The word for "rest" in Hebrews 4:9 is (sabbatismos). The term (sabbatismos) is seen in the writings of Plutarch, Justin, Epiphanius, and others, and each time the term denotes the observance of the Sabbath. Therefore the text is saying, that Sabbath obsevance remains for the people of God.

Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: dedication] #122173
12/12/09 01:23 AM
12/12/09 01:23 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,438
Canada
Therefore a Sabbath Rest Remains for the people of God. (Hebs. 4:9)
The Sabbath continues. The verb "remains" is "(apoleipetai) which literally means "has been left."

The Greek word translated "rest" in every other passage throughout Hebrews 3 and 4 is "katapausis."

All those texts you referenced use "katapausis".


The word for "rest" in Hebrews 4:9 is (sabbatismos).

The term (sabbatismos) is seen in the writings of Plutarch, Justin, Epiphanius, and others, and each time the term denotes the observance of the Sabbath. Therefore the text is saying, that Sabbath obsevance (that is observing the Sabbath day) remains for the people of God.

The author of Hebrews is giving THE TRUE reason for keeping the Sabbath day, not doing away with it.

Last edited by dedication; 12/12/09 01:28 AM.
Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: dedication] #122278
12/19/09 01:36 AM
12/19/09 01:36 AM
D
djconklin  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 175
S. St. Paul, MN
>Torah consist of 613 mitzvoh, all has been nailed to the cross,

Not exactly. Some of the 613 are explanations of what is meant in the Ten, for example the frst ten:

1. To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6)
2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3)
3. Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).
4. To hallow G-d's name (Lev. 22:32)
5. Not to profane G-d's name (Lev. 22:32)
6. To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4)
7. To love G-d (Deut. 6:5)
8. To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20)
9. Not to put the word of G-d to the test (Deut. 6:16) (negative).
10. To imitate His good and upright ways (Deut. 28:9)

from http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm


David J. Conklin

When the critics have been proven to be so wrong, on so many points, and some are quite simple, why should we listen to them on anything?
Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: Rosangela] #122347
12/22/09 08:52 AM
12/22/09 08:52 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Does the law still valid?

Christ is the end of the law

On the cross he ended the law of Moses.

A new law was given to Christianity, the law of love.

Why does we say, the Ten Commandments still continue and didn't end at the cross?

Torah consist of 613 mitzvoh, all has been nailed to the cross, is there any text saying that the Ten Commandments is an exception? Does the Jews realize that there are two laws in the Old Testament, same as SDA's view of the law?

This argument is completely absurd, James. If the law had been abolished, the Sabbath certainly would have been abolished with it.

But Jesus didn't know anything about abolishing the law, for He said, "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them." According to the interpretation you are presenting, Christ would have said, "I have not come to abolish them, but to abolish them." Besides, if "fulfill" means to abolish, when Christ said, "For thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness," this means He abolished righteousness, since He fulfilled it. What could be more absurd?

Paul also didn't know that the commandments had been abolished at the cross, for he quoted several of them (Rom. 13:9, Gal. 5:14, Rom. 7:7, Eph. 6:2).

And the news that the law had been abolished hadn't yet reached James: "If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself,' you do well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. For he who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' said also, 'Do not kill.' If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty" (James 2:8-12).

And alas, John also didn't know anything about the law having been abolished: "For sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4).

And by the way, the word "end" means also "objective", "goal."


By fulfilling the law, Christ death has ended the function of the Torah, which consist the Ten Commandments. Can we say that Torah has ended but the Decalogue no!

In His love

Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: dedication] #122348
12/22/09 09:10 AM
12/22/09 09:10 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno


Does the law still valid?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So, the law defines sin.
The wages of sin is death, thus no one is saved by keeping the law because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Christ is the only source of salvation.
But what now? Now that we have grace?
Do we do away with the law and engage in sin?
No -- emphatically not.
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

Christ is the end of the law


The law is not an end in itself, it can't bring salvation.
The law shows people their need of salvation by grace, through faith. And the ceremonies shadowed forth Christ as fulfilling the righteousness, and bearing the curse of the broken law.

The law is not destroyed, nor the intention of the Lawgiver disappointed. The cross demonstrate to every member of the human family that the law of God is immutable, and that it can NOT be put aside or nullified to save any transgressor. If God could have changed one iota of His law, Jesus need not have come to our world to suffer and die; but He who was equal with the Father came and suffered the wages of sin, even the death of the cross, to give man another probation.

Christ did not come to release us from obedience to His law, and now we are free to sin. And what is sin? The definition given in God's word is, "Sin is the transgression of the law;" and the apostle Paul declares, "Where no law is, there is no transgression." The law is the great standard that will measure every man's character.
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

On the cross he ended the law of Moses. (all has been nailed to the cross,)


No, the law was not nailed to the cross --
Christ, who bore our sins, was nailed to the cross.

Read Colossians in context:

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature" (vs 13)

Without Christ we were dead -- with no hope, enslaved in sin, with no way out.

But God made you alive with Christ."

How does He do that? How does He give us life and deliver us from death?
Paul's next words tell us!
"He forgave us all our sins"

What was that again? How did He deliver us from death and bring us to life? By getting rid of the law that condemned us? NO! NO! He forgave us our sins, and how was this possible -- this forgiveness?

"He forgave us all our sins; having canceled the written record with it's legal demands which stood against us."

"Cheirographon" was used to show a "certificate of indebtedness". So we could read the verse to say: he canceled the written record of our debts.
What regulations or legal decree is held against sinners? The Bible tells us the wages of sin is death. That is the legal decree— you sin— you will die! That is the wage for sin.

How was it possible for God to forgive us our sins, canceling the record with it's legal decree against us? The verse continues, "He took it away by nailing it to the cross."

So what was nailed to the cross?
What was it that was against us, what was it that opposed us, what was it that stood in the way of life for us?

We must ask ourselves, did God bring forgiveness to mankind by destroying that which points out sin, or by taking upon Himself our sins and paying the penalty in our behalf? The Bible makes this clear enough.

In 1 Cor. 15:3 "Christ died for OUR SINS according to the scriptures."

Peter adds; "Christ in his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness, by whose stripes we were healed." (1 Peter 2:24)


Originally Posted By: James Saptenno


A new law was given to Christianity, the law of love.


No, the law of love wasn't new.
God's law IS love -- it always was and always will be.

Deut. 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deut. 11:13 Hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Lev. 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.





Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

Why does we say, the Ten Commandments still continue and didn't end at the cross?

Torah consist of 613 mitzvoh, all has been nailed to the cross, is there any text saying that the Ten Commandments is an exception? Does the Jews realize that there are two laws in the Old Testament, same as SDA's view of the law?

In His love


Scripture says of Christ:
he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
The blood shed as the sacrifices were offered pointed to the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. All the typical offerings were fulfilled in Him.

Surely you don't want people free now to:
lie, steal, kill, be dishonest, coveteous, with no regard for faithfulness to God, one's marriage partner, or associates, would you?

To say it's "just love" now, puts one in the realm of "moral ethics" or -- whatever seems like "loving" thing to do at the moment, kind of thing.

But God's law of love has guidelines -- his commandments.



In Hebrews we see that the sacrificial/priestly rituals are "fadding away"

but one thing REMAINS

Therefore a Sabbath Rest Remains for the people of God. (Hebs. 4:9)

The Sabbath continues. The verb "remains" is "(apoleipetai) which literally means "has been left."
The Greek word translated "rest" in every other passage throughout Hebrews 3 and 4 is "katapausis." The word for "rest" in Hebrews 4:9 is (sabbatismos). The term (sabbatismos) is seen in the writings of Plutarch, Justin, Epiphanius, and others, and each time the term denotes the observance of the Sabbath. Therefore the text is saying, that Sabbath obsevance remains for the people of God.


God is love. Love is the code of the heavenly kingdom.

Men was created in God's image and after his likeness, with love in his heart. There is only one law in Eden - love.

To Israel was given the Torah with the love code explained as the Decalogue. They must do and obey the Torah, including the Decalogue in it.

Christ renewed the position of the love code for Christian with his death, there is again only one law - the love code, which will go for eternity in heaven and the new world.

Whatever you did (not specifically the decalogue) that is based on "self" is against the love code, is sin.

For Christian, when they sin, they did something against the love code, not against the Decalogue. The only law that would judge people is the love code, because it is the code of heavenly kingdom.

Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:10). When you sin, you did not fulfill the love code rather than you break the Decalogue.

In His love

Last edited by James Saptenno; 12/22/09 09:13 AM.
Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: James Saptenno] #122349
12/22/09 10:59 AM
12/22/09 10:59 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,438
Canada
A "love code" without any definitions, isn't a code at all.
Love without limits is simply another lie of Satan. It presupposes that a person within him/herself is godlike and can render godly love without any guidelines from God.

The humanistic thinkers have taken over the concept of love from Christianity, but they only took it by word because they want to decide for themselves what love commands, what love is. They want freedom from God's law not freedom in God's law and therefore produce a love apart from law not a love according to God's law.



Last edited by dedication; 12/22/09 11:02 AM.
Re: Text proves that Sabbath still exist and is still valid till Jesus come [Re: dedication] #122384
12/24/09 04:39 AM
12/24/09 04:39 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: dedication
A "love code" without any definitions, isn't a code at all.
Love without limits is simply another lie of Satan. It presupposes that a person within him/herself is godlike and can render godly love without any guidelines from God.

The humanistic thinkers have taken over the concept of love from Christianity, but they only took it by word because they want to decide for themselves what love commands, what love is. They want freedom from God's law not freedom in God's law and therefore produce a love apart from law not a love according to God's law.




Who needs a definition? Is there any definition of love as the Decalogue in heaven, or in Eden when A&E were created? None at all.

Colossians 3:1,2.
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

As Christians, our mindsets are in heaven, our hearts is flowed with love, who need a definition.

There is only one word to describe the love code:

Matthew 7:12 - Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

In His love

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