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Re: Does Ephesians 1:13 Implode SDA "Seal of God" Interpretation? [Re: vastergotland] #125780
06/06/10 06:34 PM
06/06/10 06:34 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,153
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
Please bear in mind that a seal of God placed on the forehead obviously means the person accepted the whole body of truths revealed by the Holy Spirit. If, at the end of time, light is brought upon the whole world about a particular point of truth which most of its inhabitants weren’t aware of before, it’s obvious that those who accept it will receive the seal of God, while those who reject it will receive the mark of the beast.
And please, bear also in mind that the point of truth related to the seal of God/mark of the beast must be something easily visible, not something general as loving God and loving your neighbor – otherwise, how will it be known on which side you are? The side taken by every person must be clearly known if people are going to be persecuted and threatened with death for following true doctrine instead of false doctrine (Rev. 13: 15-17).

I am thinking that since it is the beast who does the marking, what is marked doesnt necessarily have to be clearly visible to human eyes.

Of course the seal and the mark themselves are an internal (intellectual, spiritual) setting into the truth or into error, and this cannot be seen. But obviously there must be some external evidence or choice which will give the beast (a human persecuting power) a basis for it to persecute.

Quote:
John grew up in a society where "the law" referred to the entire corpus of the books of Moses, there were 613 laws recognized and lots of auxiliary laws to hedge in the 613. He then walked with Jesus throughout His years of ministry, seeing the auxiliaries abolished and the 613 reformed. He often heard Jesus tell His disciples, [John 13:34 John 14:15 John 14:21 John 15:10 John 15:12 John 15:14 John 15:17] He then sat through the council of Jerusalem where the question apparently was raised, which of the signs given to Israel relate to non-jewish believers? Maybe he even saw the destruction of the temple, making a whole bunch of the 613 obsolete.

It may be in order to recapitulate some things here. Long before the 613 were given to Moses, in fact before the entrance of sin, God gave moral rules of conduct to humankind. These rules of conduct, given to Adam, were obviously the 2 commandments of supreme love to God (disobedience to Whom would bring death) and love to neighbor, but they included also the Sabbath commandment (a day which God blessed and hallowed – set aside for holy purposes – for humankind; see Gen. 2:3, Mark 2:27). Just after the Fall, of course God had to unfold the 2 into the 10 in order to define sin more clearly to sinful human beings. Thus, Cain knew that anger/hate/murder was a sin (Gen. 4:7), Abimelech knew that adultery was a sin (Gen. 20:9), and the same is true of Joseph (Gen. 39:9), and other examples could be cited. All of this before Sinai and the 613. So, whatever happened to the other 603 of these commandments (although I disagree with your conclusion that all of them have become obsolete), we know that the 10 existed long before them, and will continue to exist as long as the earth lasts.
And, as to the 2 being new commandments, they are not new at all – they were given to Adam, but of course they existed long before him, for they both were transgressed by Lucifer (John 8:44). Christ was just expressing that the second one – love to neighbors – acquired a new meaning through His sacrifice.

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I am not saying John gives a definition of his own to the word "commandment"

I’m glad you are not saying John gives a definition of his own to the words “law” and “commandment,” otherwise he would be contradicting what James, Jesus’ brother, says in his letter:

“8 If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.
9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," said also, "Do not kill." If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.”

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Are they christian in any meaningful sense of the word, when they wont even identify themselves as such?

Most Christians, in any part of the world, do not live as Christians.

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You are speaking in terms of now. You can’t judge what will happen then by what happens now.

You were judging the relative importance of the 9 vs the 1 based on the present situation.

Ok, but we were discussing about my previous statement: “And, since we know that almost the totality of Christendom keeps Sunday, it's probable this will be the point of truth especially controverted.” My point was that people don’t consider themselves as transgressors of 9 of the commandments, and if confronted about the fourth, what they say is that it was either abolished or changed. This is what most Christians think, the general idea which prevails. But their attention, and the attention of everybody else in the world, will be called to this commandment if some kind of persecution arises against those who observe the Sabbath.

Re: Does Ephesians 1:13 Implode SDA "Seal of God" Interpretation? [Re: Rosangela] #125784
06/07/10 07:42 AM
06/07/10 07:42 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:

I am thinking that since it is the beast who does the marking, what is marked doesnt necessarily have to be clearly visible to human eyes.

Of course the seal and the mark themselves are an internal (intellectual, spiritual) setting into the truth or into error, and this cannot be seen. But obviously there must be some external evidence or choice which will give the beast (a human persecuting power) a basis for it to persecute.
Like Daniel was persecuted for refusing to change his prayer habit and his friends for refusing to worship the statue. Both wore a sign of their covenant with God, one through positive action and one through refusing negative action...
Quote:

Quote:
John grew up in a society where "the law" referred to the entire corpus of the books of Moses, there were 613 laws recognized and lots of auxiliary laws to hedge in the 613. He then walked with Jesus throughout His years of ministry, seeing the auxiliaries abolished and the 613 reformed. He often heard Jesus tell His disciples, [John 13:34 John 14:15 John 14:21 John 15:10 John 15:12 John 15:14 John 15:17] He then sat through the council of Jerusalem where the question apparently was raised, which of the signs given to Israel relate to non-jewish believers? Maybe he even saw the destruction of the temple, making a whole bunch of the 613 obsolete.

It may be in order to recapitulate some things here. Long before the 613 were given to Moses, in fact before the entrance of sin, God gave moral rules of conduct to humankind. These rules of conduct, given to Adam, were obviously the 2 commandments of supreme love to God (disobedience to Whom would bring death) and love to neighbor, but they included also the Sabbath commandment (a day which God blessed and hallowed – set aside for holy purposes – for humankind; see Gen. 2:3, Mark 2:27). Just after the Fall, of course God had to unfold the 2 into the 10 in order to define sin more clearly to sinful human beings. Thus, Cain knew that anger/hate/murder was a sin (Gen. 4:7), Abimelech knew that adultery was a sin (Gen. 20:9), and the same is true of Joseph (Gen. 39:9), and other examples could be cited. All of this before Sinai and the 613. So, whatever happened to the other 603 of these commandments (although I disagree with your conclusion that all of them have become obsolete),
"A whole bunch" does not equal "all of them" IMO. In this case, it is the sizeable part which relate to the temple service and the levitical service.
Quote:

we know that the 10 existed long before them, and will continue to exist as long as the earth lasts.
And, as to the 2 being new commandments, they are not new at all – they were given to Adam, but of course they existed long before him, for they both were transgressed by Lucifer (John 8:44). Christ was just expressing that the second one – love to neighbors – acquired a new meaning through His sacrifice.
"New" only occurs here because Jesus says He is giving them/us a new commandment. Maybe Jesus (and/or John who is the one quoting Jesus) is wrong?

Still, this history does not conflict with the context of first century Palestine/Jerusalem. John did not write from Adams context, or Abrahams context, or Moses context, but from the context of his own time.
Quote:

Quote:
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You are speaking in terms of now. You can’t judge what will happen then by what happens now.

You were judging the relative importance of the 9 vs the 1 based on the present situation.

Ok, but we were discussing about my previous statement: “And, since we know that almost the totality of Christendom keeps Sunday, it's probable this will be the point of truth especially controverted.” My point was that people don’t consider themselves as transgressors of 9 of the commandments, and if confronted about the fourth, what they say is that it was either abolished or changed. This is what most Christians think, the general idea which prevails. But their attention, and the attention of everybody else in the world, will be called to this commandment if some kind of persecution arises against those who observe the Sabbath.
Azenilto is making some progress in showing that Christendom does not keep Sunday. Why make a big spectacle of something then that you barely care about now?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Does Ephesians 1:13 Implode SDA "Seal of God" Interpretation? [Re: vastergotland] #125794
06/07/10 09:47 PM
06/07/10 09:47 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,153
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
Of course the seal and the mark themselves are an internal (intellectual, spiritual) setting into the truth or into error, and this cannot be seen. But obviously there must be some external evidence or choice which will give the beast (a human persecuting power) a basis for it to persecute.

Like Daniel was persecuted for refusing to change his prayer habit and his friends for refusing to worship the statue. Both wore a sign of their covenant with God, one through positive action and one through refusing negative action...

Sure, and if you define who the beast power is, it becomes easier to define what the sign will probably be.

Quote:
"A whole bunch" does not equal "all of them" IMO. In this case, it is the sizeable part which relate to the temple service and the levitical service.

Agreed.

Quote:
Quote:
we know that the 10 existed long before them, and will continue to exist as long as the earth lasts.
And, as to the 2 being new commandments, they are not new at all – they were given to Adam, but of course they existed long before him, for they both were transgressed by Lucifer (John 8:44). Christ was just expressing that the second one – love to neighbors – acquired a new meaning through His sacrifice.

"New" only occurs here because Jesus says He is giving them/us a new commandment. Maybe Jesus (and/or John who is the one quoting Jesus) is wrong?

No. John understood correctly what Christ meant:

“Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining” (1 John 2:7, 8).

What is new in the commandment is its meaning.

Quote:
Azenilto is making some progress in showing that Christendom does not keep Sunday. Why make a big spectacle of something then that you barely care about now?

What do you think people care enough about now for it to become the seal of God or the mark of the beast in the future?

Re: Does Ephesians 1:13 Implode SDA "Seal of God" Interpretation? [Re: Rosangela] #125799
06/08/10 06:20 AM
06/08/10 06:20 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Quote:
Of course the seal and the mark themselves are an internal (intellectual, spiritual) setting into the truth or into error, and this cannot be seen. But obviously there must be some external evidence or choice which will give the beast (a human persecuting power) a basis for it to persecute.

Like Daniel was persecuted for refusing to change his prayer habit and his friends for refusing to worship the statue. Both wore a sign of their covenant with God, one through positive action and one through refusing negative action...

Sure, and if you define who the beast power is, it becomes easier to define what the sign will probably be.
So, who is it? Can we presently know?
Quote:

Quote:
"New" only occurs here because Jesus says He is giving them/us a new commandment. Maybe Jesus (and/or John who is the one quoting Jesus) is wrong?

No. John understood correctly what Christ meant:

“Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining” (1 John 2:7, 8).

What is new in the commandment is its meaning.
And its meaning is the most important part of it, right? With a new meaning, you are basically saying that the commandment has been redefined.
Quote:

Quote:
Azenilto is making some progress in showing that Christendom does not keep Sunday. Why make a big spectacle of something then that you barely care about now?

What do you think people care enough about now for it to become the seal of God or the mark of the beast in the future?
I dont think there is any one thing that makes the cut for all people. Some care very much about making right political wrongs, so much that they put their lives on the line. Other people invest their lives in helping other people. Some invest their lives in hedonism. Most I would think invest their lives in the lives of their children.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Does Ephesians 1:13 Implode SDA "Seal of God" Interpretation? [Re: vastergotland] #125817
06/08/10 09:43 PM
06/08/10 09:43 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,153
Brazil
Quote:
Quote:
Sure, and if you define who the beast power is, it becomes easier to define what the sign will probably be.

So, who is it? Can we presently know?

The similarities between the little horn of Daniel 7 and the sea beast of Revelation 13 leave no doubt that both symbolize the same earthly power (see attachment below).*

The little horn:
- would arise on the head of the fourth beast (the Roman Empire), suggesting it would be a part of the Roman Empire (v. 7-8, 24).
- it would be clearly a religio-political power; it would be “different” from the other horns (v. 24)
- it would put down 3 kings (v. 24)
- it would speak words against the Most High and wear out the saints of the Most High (v. 25)
- it would think to change the times and the law (v. 25)
- the saints would be given into his hand for a time, two times and half a time (v. 25)

Many Protestant students of prophecy interpret the little horn to represent an end-time antichrist. However, this leaves a gap of some fifteen-hundred-plus years between the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 and the final events of earth's history. But there were no long historical gaps between any of the nations represented by the previous beasts. Each one immediately replaced its predecessor. Similarly, the papacy immediately replaced the Roman Empire; no long, historical gap occurred between its rise and the empire's fall.
The papacy grew out of Rome and was a part of the empire just as the little horn grew out of the head of the 4th beast and was a part of that beast. When Rome fell, the papacy stepped into the political void.
The papacy is the only religio-political power that arose after the barbarian tribes overthrew the Western Roman Empire. The papacy also fulfills all the specifications of the little horn that are recorded in verses 24 and 25. Thus, it is very reasonable to understand the little horn as a symbol of the papacy. And Adventists have historically identified the first beast of Rev. 13 as the papacy on the basis of the similarity between the sea beast and the little horn of Daniel 7.

Quote:
And its meaning is the most important part of it, right? With a new meaning, you are basically saying that the commandment has been redefined.

It's not a new meaning in the sense of being something completely different from the previous meaning. It's a new meaning in terms of renewal and deepening, not of redefinition.

Quote:
Quote:
What do you think people care enough about now for it to become the seal of God or the mark of the beast in the future?

I dont think there is any one thing that makes the cut for all people. Some care very much about making right political wrongs, so much that they put their lives on the line. Other people invest their lives in helping other people. Some invest their lives in hedonism. Most I would think invest their lives in the lives of their children.

I don't think any of these are likely to bring a religious persecution upon those who invest in them.

* The table below is from Marvin Moore's book Could It Really Happen?, p. 33.

Attached Files Clipboard01.jpg
Re: Does Ephesians 1:13 Implode SDA "Seal of God" Interpretation? [Re: Rosangela] #126338
07/13/10 01:12 AM
07/13/10 01:12 AM
Gerry Buck  Offline
Charter Member
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,859
Benton Harbor, Mi.
I came late [again] but thought of something I learned in government class over 40 years ago.
A seal os the mark of authority for the one giving instruction/orders [also known as commandments] and in order for it to be authentic, it needs to contain 3 things, the name of the authority [who], the title of the individual [what] and the dominion over which they rule.[where]
Only the fourth commandment of the Decalogue.
First who: the LORD thy God
second what: made
third: heaven and earth,
The president has his seal, you see it every time he speaks on the Television.
The seal of authority, notice SEAL, what is being talked about here. There is no doubt in my mind that the Sabbath is the seal of God. It bears all the essential requirements of being one.


I have learned two things in this life: There is a God. and I am not Him.
[i]It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men.</i>
Re: Does Ephesians 1:13 Implode SDA "Seal of God" Interpretation? [Re: vastergotland] #126371
07/17/10 05:33 AM
07/17/10 05:33 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,569
California, USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
I dont deny that the Sabbath is in the law when I question some peoples assertion that it would be the centerpiece of the law.

Actually, I think the most crucial law is the 10th - thou shalt not covet. It is the one against making self our guide. And, it is the only one that has no outward manifestation - it all happens in the thoughts and feelings.

While the 1st commandment tells us to abstain from other gods, the 10th commandment shows us which god we use to break the 1st.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does Ephesians 1:13 Implode SDA "Seal of God" Interpretation? [Re: asygo] #126374
07/17/10 10:16 AM
07/17/10 10:16 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Good point Arnold.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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