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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15183
07/30/05 04:41 AM
07/30/05 04:41 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Leaving his place in the immediate presence of God, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint. Since their natures were holy, he urged that the angels should obey the dictates of their own will. He sought to create sympathy for himself, by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. He claimed that in aspiring to greater power and honor he was not aiming at self-exaltation, but was seeking to secure liberty for all the inhabitants of Heaven, that by this means they might attain to a higher state of existence.
God, in his great mercy, bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in Heaven. Again and again he was offered
496
pardon, on condition of repentance and submission.
(GC88 495, 496)
The things in bold are sins. The part underlined stats "Again and again" Lucifer was offered "pardon". One does not need pardon if one has not sinned. Not only once was Lucifer offered pardon, but "again and again."
What was the condition of pardon? Repentance and submission. Was it necessary for God to execute a death penalty in order to pardon Lucifer? No, it wasn't.
Why was death necessary for man, and not for God?
Here's the answer:
quote:
Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. {DA 761.5}
It is by beholding God's character than man is brought back to God. To reveal God's character was the whole purpose of Christ's mission:
quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)
What EGW is bringing out here is in perfect harmony with Scripture. For example, consider the following from 1 Peter:
quote:
2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
2:25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
We were sheep going astray, but have been returned to God. Peter again brings this out in the next chapter:
[quote}3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:[/quote]
Paul brings out the same truth:
quote:
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.(Col. 1:19-21)
We were alienated in our minds, and enemies of God. Just like Adam and Eve, who ran in fear of God, ignorant of His true character because of the damage sin had inflicted upon them, sin has damaged our minds, make us to see God as our enemy, and alientating us from Him. The problem is all in our mind; it is in our mind that sin resides, and it is our mind that must be healed. It is the blood of the cross which accomplishes this healing. It is by the blood that we are reconciled to God.
Here's how Fifield put it:
quote:
But the pagan sacrifice speaks of a god of wrath and anger, whose wrath must in some way be appeased, perchance by the blood of a lamb, or it may be only by the blood of a fair maid, or innocent child, or some other human victim. When he smells the freshly flowing blood, they believe his vengeance will be satisfied, and he will be propitiated. What shall we say of the false idea of the atonement, held even by many in the popular Protestant churches of today, and expressed in a late confession of faith in these words, “Christ died to reconcile the Father unto us”? This is not the place to enter into a discussion of that theme; suffice it to say that it is the pagan idea of sacrifice applied to Christianity. God, they think, was angry; he must pour forth his wrath upon some one. If upon man, it would eternally damn him, as he deserved; but this would interfere with God’s plan and purpose in creating the worlds, so this must not be. And yet God must not be cheated of his vengeance; for this reason he pours it forth upon Christ, that man may go free. So when Christ died, he was slain really by the wrath and anger of the Father. This is paganism. The true idea of the atonement makes God and Christ equal in their love, and one in their purpose of saving humanity. “God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself.” The life of Christ was not the price paid to the Father for our pardon; but that life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. Thus Satan has transformed the truth of God’s love into a lie, and even infused this lie into the very doctrine of the atonement. pp. 33-34
The word “atonement” means at-one-ment. Sin had brought misery, and misery had brought a misunderstanding of God’s character. Thus men had come to hate God instead of loving him; and hating him, the one Father, men also hated man, their brother. Thus, instead of the one family and the one Father, men were separated from God and from each other, and held apart by hatred and selfishness. There must be an atonement…the atonement is not to appease God’s wrath, so that man dare come to him, but it is to reveal his love, so that they will come to him. It was not Christ reconciling God unto the world, but God in Christ reconciling the world to himself. It is nowhere said that God needed to be reconciled to us…pp. 100 from God is Love
Here is a concise statement from Fifield:
quote:
Every text in the Bible that speaks of the atonement, when we get it right, makes God the one who makes the atonement in Christ; not Christ simply, but God in Christ; just as God in Christ creates, redeems, reconciles, He makes the atonement. And every time the atonement, reconciliation, or propitiation are mentioned, it leads us right back to the character of God. (from the 1897 GCB)
This is the truth. Nowhere does the Bible speak of the wrath of God being appeased by the sacrifice of Christ. Nowhere does it state that God required that a death penatly be paid in order to have the legal right to forgive us. In fact, nowhere does the Bible portray the problem of man as a legal one at all. It is a problem of a broken relationship, of a damaged mind.
The need of man is to be healed, to be reconciled. This could only be accomplished by Jesus Christ, whose whole purpose was to reveal the true character of God.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15184
07/30/05 05:14 PM
07/30/05 05:14 PM
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MM has presented a very interesting and important question...."Why did Jesus have to die?"
As of yet, no answer has been provided.
Why did Jesus have to die?
Why didn't God just say that all sinners could be forgiven of their sins and any sinner who accepted this forgiveness would be saved?
Why was the death of an innocent victim a neccessity to mankind's salvation?
Again, couldn't have God just forgiven us and then we could be saved?
The answer to that question is Yes.
But........
Something had to be demonstrated to the universe that would prove once and for all what the true nature of sin is.
So.....
My question is this...... What is the true nature of sin that requires the death of an innocent victim so that the guilty can be saved?
There is an answer to this question.....Here is a hint.....The death suffered by Jesus, and the Wicked, is NOT a penalty or punishment ......Instead it is a natural consequence.
Jesus' death did NOT satisfy any requirements of the Law. Jesus death did NOT appease God and therefore make it possible for Him to forgive sinners.
Come on gentlemen....Let's reason this out for a bit and please, please do not throw various quotations and statements out in an attempt to provide an answer to this question.
Give me your best and most well-thought out explanation as to why Jesus had to die.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15185
07/30/05 06:38 PM
07/30/05 06:38 PM
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quote:
...please do not throw various quotations and statements out in an attempt to provide an answer to this question.
Ummm.... we're not supposed to use Inspiration to answer core questions dealing with salvation? Sorry, but that just won't work.
"Canst thou by searching find out God?" Job 11:7
Human reasoning by itself doesn't, and can't, get the job done when exploring such areas of thought. We must have revelations handed down to us by the Almighty if we're even going to *begin* to understand Him.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15186
07/30/05 06:56 PM
07/30/05 06:56 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Very true John. quote:
Proverbs 29:18
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
.
God Bless & Happy Sabbath
Will
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15187
07/30/05 08:46 PM
07/30/05 08:46 PM
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Sorry gentlemen, but I consider that a form of cop-out.
I would hope to be able to discuss this topic with individuals who have formulated their own conclusions through prayerful thought and contemplation.
It is unfortunate that the two of you are unable to do such.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15188
07/30/05 11:52 PM
07/30/05 11:52 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Its ok myarsman. Thats your opinion. You are entitled to have your own opinion, and by having your own opinion you also have the ability and freedom to speak what is on your mind which doesn't equate to you being right as we have seen many times before, because its your opinion, and not a stated fact historically nor Biblically. Its more like "Wahh, you guys are chicken, cmon lets see who can run faster over the cliff.", so you'll prod, push, and resort to the typical come back with "well thats not the same God I serve" rhetoric ad nauseum square root to the power of 10 reciprocated. *YaWnN*
God Bless & Happy Sabbath,
Will
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15189
07/31/05 12:36 AM
07/31/05 12:36 AM
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Will,
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
I was hoping that there could be some very meaningful discussion on this all-important topic, but it does not appear that this will be the case.
Tom, on the other hand has made some very good comments regarding MM's initial question as to why Jesus had to die, but unfortunately no one has responded to them.
With that said, I would like to make the following statements to see if we can get a good fire going on this topic.
As I had mentioned earlier, Jesus' death was not required so that God "could/would" forgive sinners. Nor was Jesus' death a penalty or punishment that met any requirement of the "Law".
Jesus' death was a "natural consequence" that takes place when an individual sins.
You may ask..."How is that so?"
Let me illustrate.
Sin originated when Satan believed and acted on his belief that it was possible to be "like God". This meant that Satan believed that he could become an "independent being" just like God is an "independent being".
An independent being is someone who is not dependent upon another being for his/her lifeforce. An independent being is able to generate "life" within itself.
Unfortunately, Satan could/would not accept the "fact" that it was impossible for him to continue to exist "independently" of his Creator.
The "natural consequence" of a "created being" become "independent" of his Creator is instantaneous and permanent Death or a state of non-existence.
You see, there is a Fact of Life that states that all "created beings" are eternally dependent upon their "Creator" for their "Life-Force/Breath of Life".
Satan believed that it was possible to "live" independently of God and that it was possible for all the other "created beings" to do likewise.
I am certain that God made every attempt to persuade Satan of the folly of his choice to attempt a separation from God, but it was to no avail.
The quandary that God was faced with was this.....
The universe had never experienced "Death" before and how was He to demonstrate the "natural consequence" of sin without bringing about the death of a "created being". Also how was He to do this without creating fear within all of His universe that the death of this "created being" was caused by God's retribution or anger.
I hope that this statement was not too confusing.
Anyway, Jesus death demonstrated to the universe what happens when a "created being" is separated from its "Creator". Throughout His entire life, Jesus had proclaimed a "dependency" upon His Heavenly Father. And yet, at the cross, Jesus experienced "separation" from God and this resulted in His death.
The heavenly observers witnessed this and came to the realization that the "natural consequence" of sin is "Death" and it was then resolved in their minds that Satan's premise that it is possible to exist "independently" of God is a "Lie/Falsehood".
When Jesus ascended to Heaven, the unfallen beings welcomed Him as the Saviour of the World and at the same time rejected Satan and his angels. It was at this time that the War in Heaven took place and Satan was then banished to this earth to await His inevitable death.
Not only did Jesus' death demonstrate the "natural consequence" of sin, but God also stated that Jesus' death would be substitutionary for all sinners who would repent and desire an "atonement" with God. Jesus would die the death that all sinners should experience.
I'll stop for now, because that is probably a bit much for you to digest.
(Please note that I did not quote anyone.)
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15190
07/31/05 01:13 AM
07/31/05 01:13 AM
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myarsman,
As Will said, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. As are we all.
But for you to lay down the condition that we can't use inspired statements in a discussion about divine subjects is just plain silly. That's like saying we should have a court case, but nobody is allowed to introduce evidence beyond their own opinion. Nothing of any real use could possibly get accomplished that way.
You're not an authority, I'm not an authority. No uninspired human is an authority. The only way we can nail down what's really what when speaking of God is to reference His messages to us, as communicated through His Son, and His apostles and prophets.
In fact, it's sort of ironic -- your post right above this one contains information none of us would have if we hadn't read the Bible. So you indirectly quoted Scripture in putting forth those ideas. It's okay to quote Bible passages indirectly, as you have, but not to quote Inspiration directly? That doesn't compute.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15191
07/31/05 03:21 AM
07/31/05 03:21 AM
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John,
I am not attempting to dictate any conditions as to how the participants on this forum are to discuss this particular topic.
What I am trying to do is to challenge each participant to present their understanding on this subject in their own words, which would indicate that they have thoroughly "thought-out" this particular subject.
It is easy to perform "word-searches" on any particular subject and then use the quotations of others to present your position on any particular topic. It is quite another thing to contemplate and rationalize a topic of discussion and then present your conclusions using your own thoughts and words.
The challenge that I present to you is for you to give careful thought to these conclusions and then comment on them as you wish.
I ask that you please take no offense at the request that I have made as to the "quotations" that have been submitted on this forum. I have been an SDA all my life and have witnessed firsthand how some individuals allow others to do the thinking for them and then they just play the role of "parrot".
But I digress.......
Yes, the statements that I have made can be drawn from Biblical sources, but as you can clearly see, these statements are not direct quotes. Also, the conclusions that I have presented are somewhat different from any other that has been presented on this topic.
I would ask that you comment on these conclusions, solely, and not "zero-in" on any requests that I may have made that you would deem as unfair. If you wish to use the quotations of others, then that is your right to do so. I can not stop you for doing such.
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Re: Another look at why Jesus had to die?
#15192
07/31/05 03:37 AM
07/31/05 03:37 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Bob, I provided reasons in the long post right before your first one, but I'll restate them succinctly here. Basically I think only by Christ's becoming a human being could God's character be clearly revealed, and without that revelation man could not be healed. Also Christ revealed God's character to unfallen worlds, which established an eternal security for the universe by making clear the character of God vs. the character of Satan and sin.
The aspect of Christ's life which most fully revealed God was His death. From Christ's death it was conclusively demonstrated that God puts the interests of creatures above His own, regardless of the cost. He is completely selfless. He loves us unserverdly, giving of Himself until there is nothing more to give. This love, fully revealed by the cross, has the capability to heal us, as well as settling forever the issues raised by the adversary in heaven.
The cross reveals as nothing else the truth about sin and death, the truth about ourselves, the truth about Satan, and above all, the truth about God.
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