True, real, genuine, thorough conversion is a radical change, a radical transformation. The difference between who they were and who they are is radical. They are born again with a new heart, a new mind, a new nature, new tastes, new motives, new desires, new tendencies - everything about them is radically new and improved. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Cor 5:17.

Most people I know have an entirely different view of the biblical description of rebirth and conversion. Some believe the Bible describes the process of conversion as people being born again ignorantly practicing certain sinful habits. They believe Jesus withholds revealing to them certain sinful habits and practices until He feels they are ready to confront and crucify them. They interpret 2 Cor 5:17 to mean -

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he begins a lifelong process of gradually becoming a new creature. Old things begin to pass away. Behold, all things slowly, but surely, become new.

Is this what the Bible means? Is this how the Bible describes the process of conversion?

A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. {DA 172.3}

Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

So, what is the fruit of this long, patient, protracted process of conversion? Are they born again ignorantly practicing some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to experiencing conversion (I'm not saying you, APL, think so)? If so, please name specific evil traits of character, habits, practices that Jesus chooses not to reveal to them during the process that ends in conversion.

Jesus, through Paul, names several sins newborn believers do not cherish or act out in word or deed while walking in the Spirit. He wrote:


By "and such like" he means any and all sinful habits and practices. Some, however, believe Jesus withholds revealing to newborn believers some of the sinful habits and practices they cultivated prior to experiencing rebirth in God's appointed way, the way described in the Bible. They believe Jesus overlooks certain sinful habits, allowing newborn believer to practice them in ignorance until He feels they are ready to confront and crucify them.

Is it true? Does Jesus withhold truth from newborn believers? Does the Bible describe "the patient, protracted process of conversion" ending in believers sinning in ignorance because Jesus chooses to leave them in ignorance? If so, please name specific cultivated sinful habits and practices Jesus waits to reveal to ignorant newborn believers until He feels they are ready to deal with it.

The idea that people experience rebirth first and then begin a lifelong process of gradually discovering, confessing, and crucifying the sinful habits they cultivated is unbiblical.

Genuine faith always works by love. When you look to Calvary it is not to quiet your soul in the nonperformance of duty, not to compose yourself to sleep, but to create faith in Jesus, faith that will work, purifying the soul from the slime of selfishness. When we lay hold of Christ by faith, our work has just begun. Every man has corrupt and sinful habits that must be overcome by vigorous warfare. Every soul is required to fight the fight of faith. If one is a follower of Christ, he cannot be sharp in deal, he cannot be hardhearted, devoid of sympathy. . . . He cannot be overbearing, nor can he use harsh words, and censure and condemn. {AG 292.4}

The exhortation of the apostle is, “Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” It is by engaging in this work, and by exercising living faith in God, that we are to perfect Christian character. The work of cleansing the soul-temple and preparing for Christ's appearing must be done while we are in this world of temptation. Just as Christ finds us in character when he comes, so we shall remain. We should make daily advancement in the work of character-building. When we try to separate from us our sinful habits, it may at times seem that we are tearing ourselves all to pieces; but this is the very work that we must do if we would grow up unto the full stature of men and women in Christ Jesus, if we would become fit temples for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is not the will of God that we should remain in feebleness and darkness. He would have us put on the whole armor, and fight valiantly the battle against sin and self. And after we have truly repented of our sins, and done all that we can to overcome them, he would have us manifest a calm, unyielding trust in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. {HS 134.5, 6}

Mt Man, When did Peter receive his new name?

Matthew 16:13 "Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ."


They weren't even permitted to testify that Jesus was the Christ yet.

Peter had confessed through the Holy Spirit that Jesus was the Son of God and he received a new name. Was he perfected then? Did he have prejudice and fear in him still?

You said before that Peter was going against conviction when he sinned in prejudice but that is not true. He was afraid when confronted with death. He had pledged his life in an oath but ran away instead of keeping his oath, and he was in ignorance about the sin of prejudice.

Jesus had to test him to reveal the parts of his character that needed improving and to reveal where he was not convicted in truth.

Peter received his new name before he had denied him and Mrs White said he left Gethsemane a CONVERTED MAN after Jesus was betrayed and Peter had denied him.

John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

That was spoken before the betrayal. Judas had left but there were many things not yet known in their ignorance. Thomas denied Christ by not believing in the resurrection. But the promise was that they WOULD BE fully converted. They all believed Jesus was a ghost when they saw Him. Would that be ignorance?

Are you saying Jesus left the future of the church in the hands of people that were not converted? They didn't receive the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost and still Peter had prejudice and it was not something he was going against his convictions on or his sin would have removed him from the position.

In the other thread you said Peter was going against his convictions when being prejudiced. That would be way worse than being in ignorance would it not?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The knowledge of sin is way worse than being ignorant of sin. Would Jesus have put Peter in charge if he was willingly committing sin?

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Amen!

Conversion is a "turning around" point in ones life, it is not the "arriving point" of maturity.

Indeed the Holy Spirit will lead a person all their lives to root out defects of characters.

Conversion is the point where a person recognizes they are a sinner in need of a Savior and confess in repentance the same to Christ. They rise from their baptism to walk AND GROW in newness of life, and to grow - yes, by following the leading of the Holy spirit by "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8:13.

When Jesus told Peter "When you are converted" He wasn't saying when you have overcome all sin in your life, but rather, he was saying "When you realize you are a sinner and must constantly depend upon Christ to enable you to walk on the path of righteousness, then you are ready to feed my sheep.

Peter fell because he was depending upon self, he thought he was strong and really didn't need a Savior (even though he loved Christ) and he even declared -- in Matt. 26 " , Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended."

He converted from self into someone who depended upon a Savior , he thought he could do it in his own power and strength. he felt strong in himself.

At conversion a person realizes they are in need of a Savior, "without Him we can do nothing" with God all things are possible.