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Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: glenm] #182145
12/16/16 11:42 AM
12/16/16 11:42 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted By: glenm
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Since the "mark of the beast" decree is just ahead of us, this indicates that the 144,000 are being sealed today.

There are a couple of SOP quotes that I often come back to, that describe what is necessary to receive the seal described in Revelation 7:1-4.

Quote:
Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. {GC 623.1}


Quote:
I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully. {EW 71.1}


Quote:
What are you doing, brethren, in the great work of preparation? Those who are uniting with the world are receiving the worldly mold and preparing for the mark of the beast. Those who are distrustful of self, who are humbling themselves before God and purifying their souls by obeying the truth these are receiving the heavenly mold and preparing for the seal of God in their foreheads. When the decree goes forth and the stamp is impressed, their character will remain pure and spotless for eternity. {5T 216.1}

Now is the time to prepare. The seal of God will never be placed upon the forehead of an impure man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of the ambitious, world-loving man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of men or women of false tongues or deceitful hearts. All who receive the seal must be without spot before God -- candidates for heaven. Go forward, my brethren and sisters. I can only write briefly upon these points at this time, merely calling your attention to the necessity of preparation. Search the Scriptures for yourselves, that you may understand the fearful solemnity of the present hour. {5T 216.2}


We have to compare the characteristics of the Remnant and the 144,000 when it comes to being defiled by the "wine" of Babylon or false doctrine and those "not defiled with women; for they are virgins", which is basically women/church's so are not defiled with the wrong doctrines of corrupt church's.

Revelation 14:4

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

'...The "wine" of Babylon represents her heretical teachings. Babylon will pressure the powers of state to enforce universally her false religious teachings and decrees.

The "fornication" mentioned represents the illicit relationship between Babylon and the nations—between the apostate church and civil powers. The church is supposed to be married to her Lord; in seeking instead the support of the state, she leaves her spouse and commits spiritual fornication (cf. Eze. 16:15; James 4:4).

This illicit relationship results in tragedy. John sees the inhabitants of the earth "drunk" with false teachings, and Babylon herself "drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus," who refuse to accept her unscriptural doctrines and submit to her authority (Rev. 17:2, 6).'...http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-12.htm

Last edited by Rick H; 12/17/16 12:28 PM.
Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182154
12/17/16 01:01 PM
12/17/16 01:01 PM
Rick H  Offline
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So it seems clear that the 'remnant' and the '144,000' are distinct and yet not the same. The remnant can be those who believe in the Sabbath and Commandments and the end time prophet, and yet not be among the living or 'first fruits' when Christ comes.

So something has to happen to bring all those in Sunday Keeping church's into the Adventist church, as the identifying sign of the remnant church is their loyalty to God’s commandments including the fourth, the Sabbath commandment .

Revelation 12:17

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

So from Revelation 12:17: At the end of time God will have a remnant church which will be recognized by the fact that they keep the commandments, including the seventh-day Sabbath commandment and have the testimony of Jesus.

So lets look at the second identifying mark “the testimony of Jesus.” It occurs six times in the book of Revelation (1:2, 9; 12:17; 19:10 [twice]; 20:4).

First, we look at Revelation 1:
Revelation 1:2

"Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

In verse 2 we read that John bore witness to “the Word of God” and “the testimony of Jesus.”
We commonly understand “the Word of God” to refer to what God says and “the testimony of Jesus,” in parallel to “the Word of God,” and means the testimony that Jesus Himself gives.

How did Jesus testify of Himself? He told them directly when He was earth. After His ascension, He spoke through His prophets.

We read in Revelation 1:9:

"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."


“The Word of God” in John’s time referred to the Old Testament, and the “testimony of Jesus” referred to what Jesus had said, the truths He revealed as recorded in the Gospels and through His prophets, like Peter and Paul.


In Revelation 19:10 we read:

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

So we have a explanation, ‘For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy’

in 1 Corinthians 12:8–10, where Paul refers to the Holy Spirit, who gives the gift of prophecy, and the person who receives this gift is called a “prophet” (1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11).

So those who are the 'remnant' can be those who keep the Sabbath and Commandments and believe in the SOP. But the 144,000 are sealed.

Revelation 7(KJV):

"4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

And they are not defiled, and had no guile and are the 'firstfruits' and without fault before the throne of God, and have the Fathers name on their foreheads.

Revelation 14King James Version (KJV)

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

So it looks like a much more distinctive group of saints.

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182163
12/17/16 08:58 PM
12/17/16 08:58 PM
G
glenm  Offline
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Colorado, USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
So it seems clear that the 'remnant' and the '144,000' are distinct and yet not the same.

Another way that we can distinguish the 144,000 from others is by considering the work that they do within the church.

For example, we know that Elijah was a type of the 144,000 (PK 227.2), and he was deeply involved in a work of reform in Israel, culminating in the showdown on Carmel (1 Kings 18).

The SOP mentions the 144,000 in connection with "the closing work for the church", and it appears from the quote below that their straight testimony to the church is part of the refining process that occurs in the lead-up to their sealing.

We certainly know that such refining was part of Elijah's experience, for example the huge letdown he suffered after the victory over the Baal priests (1 Kings 19).

Quote:
The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." {3T 266.2}

Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God's sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. {3T 267.1}

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: glenm] #182270
01/06/17 01:46 AM
01/06/17 01:46 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: glenm
Originally Posted By: Rick H
So it seems clear that the 'remnant' and the '144,000' are distinct and yet not the same.

Another way that we can distinguish the 144,000 from others is by considering the work that they do within the church.

For example, we know that Elijah was a type of the 144,000 (PK 227.2), and he was deeply involved in a work of reform in Israel, culminating in the showdown on Carmel (1 Kings 18).

The SOP mentions the 144,000 in connection with "the closing work for the church", and it appears from the quote below that their straight testimony to the church is part of the refining process that occurs in the lead-up to their sealing.

We certainly know that such refining was part of Elijah's experience, for example the huge letdown he suffered after the victory over the Baal priests (1 Kings 19).

Quote:
The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." {3T 266.2}

Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God's sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. {3T 267.1}


Why are you openly contradicting the patently obvious? The spirit of prophecy says that the 144,000 are Israelis; and then a great multitude of every nation, ethnicity and language (including them).

Rev. 7:4 -- "And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed ..."

Rev. 7:9 -- " After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands ..."

If you take the time to read the Bible for yourself, you won't end up believing nonsense.

///

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: James Peterson] #182272
01/06/17 11:46 AM
01/06/17 11:46 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: glenm
Originally Posted By: Rick H
So it seems clear that the 'remnant' and the '144,000' are distinct and yet not the same.

Another way that we can distinguish the 144,000 from others is by considering the work that they do within the church.

For example, we know that Elijah was a type of the 144,000 (PK 227.2), and he was deeply involved in a work of reform in Israel, culminating in the showdown on Carmel (1 Kings 18).

The SOP mentions the 144,000 in connection with "the closing work for the church", and it appears from the quote below that their straight testimony to the church is part of the refining process that occurs in the lead-up to their sealing.

We certainly know that such refining was part of Elijah's experience, for example the huge letdown he suffered after the victory over the Baal priests (1 Kings 19).

Quote:
The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." {3T 266.2}

Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God's sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. {3T 267.1}


Why are you openly contradicting the patently obvious? The spirit of prophecy says that the 144,000 are Israelis; and then a great multitude of every nation, ethnicity and language (including them).

Rev. 7:4 -- "And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed ..."

Rev. 7:9 -- " After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands ..."

If you take the time to read the Bible for yourself, you won't end up believing nonsense.

///


We have the following in SOP Counsels for the Church, Page 240:

“God has a church upon the earth who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. He is leading, not stray offshoots, not one here and one there, but a people. The truth is a sanctifying power; but the church militant is not the church triumphant. There are tares among the wheat. “Wilt thou then that we ... gather them up?” was the question of the servant; but the master answered, “Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.” The gospel net draws not only good fish, but bad ones as well, and the Lord only knows who are His. CCh 240.1”

In the Great Controversy page 623, Ellen White has some very specific descriptions of those who stand at the end while Christ still intercedes in the Most Holy Place:

“Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. “{GC 623.1}

So we have a church who are not all Gods people, composed of two groups, the true followers of God and others whose hearts and minds are not cleansed and ready for Christ, this is the church militant. So the church itself must go through a shaking in which those on the side of Satan will be taken out, the tares will be separated from the wheat, and the people who are His, prepared to be the church triumphant.

We find in John 6:27 it tells us:

“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.” John 6:27

We also find in 2 Corinthians 1:21-23 (KJV)

“21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”

So the saints throughout the ages have been sealed, and we to need to be sealed, SOP tells us in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, Page 216 :

“Now is the time to prepare. The seal of God will never be placed upon the forehead of an impure man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of the ambitious, world-loving man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of men or women of false tongues or deceitful hearts. All who receive the seal must be without spot before God -- candidates for heaven..” {5T 216.2}

Lets look at Matthew 5:48 and read what it has to say:

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48.

Now SOP in Early Writings, Page 71, makes clear, at the end, we will be without an intercessor: “I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.” {EW 71.1} Its confirmed in the Great Controversy page 614, Ellen White states, “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.” (GC 614).

Hebrews describes the role of Jesus as our mediator in heaven. And yet from SOP, its clear there will be a time when there is no mediator at all, and in that time, “we must reflect the image of Jesus fully” SOP (7BC 977.11 ) says this represents the character of the people of God for these last days.

Now read John 16:25-27:

“25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”

So a time will come when Jesus will not pray to the Father on our behalf, because we will know that “the Father himself loves us.” Now the statement from Ellen White that we are to “stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator (GC 425) is clearer and rather than words that strikes fear into our hearts, it changes into a promise. As long as we need a mediator we will have one. But in John 16, Jesus promises us a time will come when we won’t have a mediator because we won’t need one for those that truly know and love Christ.

In Great Controversy page 614 we read, “When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement:”

Now Revelation 22:11:

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

We find in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, Page 216 :

“It is now that we must keep ourselves and our children unspotted from the world. It is now that we must wash our robes of character and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. It is now that we must overcome pride, passion, and spiritual slothfulness....What are you doing, brethren, in the great work of preparation?..Those who are distrustful of self, who are humbling themselves before God and purifying their souls by obeying the truth these are receiving the heavenly mold and preparing for the seal of God in their foreheads. When the decree goes forth and the stamp is impressed, their character will remain pure and spotless for eternity. {5T 216.1}

In Revelation 3:21 Christ makes a promise to the church of Laodicea. “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Revelation 3:21).

So these saints that live at the end during the time such as never was must not only overcome, but perfect and just like Job to go through a unimaginable trial, and be ready to stand pure and spotless without a mediator with their robes washed in the blood of the lamb to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God.

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182273
01/06/17 11:48 AM
01/06/17 11:48 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Florida, USA
Now as to the question if they are 'literal Jews'...

The 144,000 occurs only twice in Scripture—both times in the book of Revelation. We find it first between the sixth and the seventh seals here in Rev. 7:4, prior to the Second Coming. So lets turn to Revelation to see what it says: Lets begin in Revelation 7 verse 1:

“1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
Revelation 7:1-4

Some Christians assert that the text refers to Jews only so we first need to determine whether or not this 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from their 12 respective tribes. Lets turn to Galatians 3:29 and read it:

“29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29King James Version (KJV)

Next we read from Paul, the following of who is a true Jew in Romans 2:28-29:

“28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

Next we read from James what shows that the Apostles viewed the tribes in a spiritual sense. “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad, greetings” (James 1:1). The content of James’ letter is clearly addressed to Christians, and yet he plainly refers to them as spiritual Jews from 12 spiritual tribes. So its clear that it is referring to spiritual Israel regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile by blood.

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182274
01/06/17 11:54 AM
01/06/17 11:54 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Here is a great explanation...

"the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

The next main passage that describes the 144,000 is Revelation 14:1-5: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion [Mount Zion], and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile [deceit]: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

I should mention that when we explore these things, we venture on holy ground. I share the following study with confidence, but I also realize and respect that others may have a different interpretation.

The Twelve Tribes
Perhaps one of the first things we should ask is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes. I don't want to be tedious, but to really understand this subject we should briefly review what the Bible says about the Old Testament tribes. First, there were actually 13 tribes. Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, who the Lord renamed Israel. But because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph. "Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons.

One reason you still find only 12 tribes mentioned throughout the Bible is that after the Levites were chosen to be the priests for Israel, they were excluded from receiving a specific territory inheritance (Deuteronomy 10:8, 9; 18:1) and from census figures (Numbers 1:49). Instead, they were to spread out among all the tribes as teachers and priests.

There are several reasons why the tribes mentioned in Revelation chapter 7 can't possibly be literal Israelite tribes. The Old Testament reveals that 10 of the 12 tribes were carried away by the Assyrians in 722 B.C. "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes." 2 Kings 17:6.

History records that long before the time of Jesus, some of the 10 tribes returned to Samaria after intermarrying with the Assyrians. Their descendants, known as Samaritans, were hated by the Jews because they were no longer "pure" Israelites in blood or religion. In fact, because the 10 tribes have been so thoroughly scattered around the world and absorbed by their host nations, today a person would be hard pressed to find even one pure descendant from the tribe of Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, or Simeon-much less 12,000 of them!

Another strong clue that Revelation is not speaking of the literal Israelite tribes is that in the Old Testament, the 12 tribes were very unequal in population numbers. Judah was very large, while Benjamin was very small. God divided the promised land in proportion to each tribe's needs. But the 144,000 is composed of 12,000 per tribe, right across the board.

So who does make up this group? I believe the answer to this question lies in the fact that God's promises to literal Israel now apply to spiritual Israel. Since the year A.D. 34, the prophecies and attention of Scripture have focused on the children of faith-either Jew or Gentile. "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit." Romans 2:28, 29. "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29"


http://www.amazingfacts.org/news-and-features/inside-report/magazine/id/10751/t/who-are-the-144-000

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182275
01/06/17 11:57 AM
01/06/17 11:57 AM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,126
Florida, USA
Now lets look to see who they are...

lets go back to see the characteristics of the 144,000. We saw in Revelation 7 in verse 3 that they are sealed, “3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

In Revelation 14 verse 1, we find the same sealing:
“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.” Revelation 14 (KJV)
SOP tells us in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3, Page 266: “The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people.." {3T 266.2}
So we see “in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God”.

So what description does scripture give, we find Revelation 14 verse 3 & 4:

“3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb..” Revelation 14:3-4 (KJV)
Their loyalty and dedication to God are signified by the images of verse 4. These believers are ‘virgins’—undefiled by the corruption Satan has out there. God’s end-time people are wholeheartedly dedicated to God as a bride to her bridegroom. In other words, they are faithful spouses, following the Lamb wherever He goes.
We also read in the SOP in Reflecting Christ, p. 226, the terrible battle they will fight:“ In vision I saw two armies in terrible conflict. One army was led by banners bearing the world's insignia; the other was led by the bloodstained banner of Prince Immanuel. Standard after standard was left to trail in the dust as company after company from the Lord's army joined the foe and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God. An angel flying in the midst of heaven put the standard of Immanuel into many hands, while a mighty general cried out with a loud voice: "Come into line. Let those who are loyal to the commandments of God and the testimony of Christ now take their position. Come out from among them, and be ye separate." The battle raged. Victory alternated from side to side. At last the victory was gained. The army following the banner with the inscription, "The commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus," was gloriously triumphant.... Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ.” This is the church triumphant, lets compare this to Revelation 14, verse 5:
“5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” Revelation 14:5 (KJV)

SOP in the Great Controversy pages 648-649, tells us that they are those who are living at the end and have overcome:

“Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." ….. they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments.
But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God.

The answer is right there, they are those who survive and are living, not waiting in the grave to be resurrected when Christ comes....



Last edited by Rick H; 01/06/17 11:59 AM.
Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182277
01/06/17 06:16 PM
01/06/17 06:16 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Now lets look to see who they are...

lets go back to see the characteristics of the 144,000. We saw in Revelation 7 in verse 3 that they are sealed, “3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

In Revelation 14 verse 1, we find the same sealing:
“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.” Revelation 14 (KJV)
SOP tells us in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3, Page 266: “The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people.." {3T 266.2}
So we see “in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God”.

So what description does scripture give, we find Revelation 14 verse 3 & 4:

“3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb..” Revelation 14:3-4 (KJV)
Their loyalty and dedication to God are signified by the images of verse 4. These believers are ‘virgins’—undefiled by the corruption Satan has out there. God’s end-time people are wholeheartedly dedicated to God as a bride to her bridegroom. In other words, they are faithful spouses, following the Lamb wherever He goes.
We also read in the SOP in Reflecting Christ, p. 226, the terrible battle they will fight:“ In vision I saw two armies in terrible conflict. One army was led by banners bearing the world's insignia; the other was led by the bloodstained banner of Prince Immanuel. Standard after standard was left to trail in the dust as company after company from the Lord's army joined the foe and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God. An angel flying in the midst of heaven put the standard of Immanuel into many hands, while a mighty general cried out with a loud voice: "Come into line. Let those who are loyal to the commandments of God and the testimony of Christ now take their position. Come out from among them, and be ye separate." The battle raged. Victory alternated from side to side. At last the victory was gained. The army following the banner with the inscription, "The commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus," was gloriously triumphant.... Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ.” This is the church triumphant, lets compare this to Revelation 14, verse 5:
“5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” Revelation 14:5 (KJV)

SOP in the Great Controversy pages 648-649, tells us that they are those who are living at the end and have overcome:

“Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." ….. they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments.
But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God.

The answer is right there, they are those who survive and are living, not waiting in the grave to be resurrected when Christ comes....




All the great many words you have written cannot negate the spirit of prophecy that:

1. Rev. 7:4 -- "And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed ..."

AND

2. Rev. 7:9 -- " After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands ..."

If only [#1] above were written, then we might interpret it any way we can; but [#2] constrains us. The TWO groups must therefore be Israelis first AND after, Gentiles too.

///

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182278
01/06/17 10:18 PM
01/06/17 10:18 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
The Gentiles have no part in God's covenant promises. In Christ is the yea. "For how many soever be the promises of God, in Him is the yea; wherefore also through Him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us." 2 Corinthians 1:20. The Gentiles are those who are without Christ, and so they are "strangers from the covenants of promise." No Gentile has any part in any covenant of promise. But whosoever will may come to Christ, and may share in the promises; for Christ says, "Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 But when the Gentile does that, no matter what his nationality may be, he ceases to be a Gentile, and becomes a member of "the commonwealth of Israel."


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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