Is it possible Jesus was contrasting a Jewish perversion of the law of Moses with what was actually inherent within the law of Moses?

[quote=Scott]I agree that what Jesus said was inherent in the law of Moses only in principle. In other words the principles that Moses’ laws were based on were the same principles that Jesus’ word was based on. The difference being the revelation of God that Jesus came to show us. Jesus is the exegesis of the OT. He explains it and not the other way around. It testifies of Him and He verifies its meaning. If you want prophetic proof that Jesus is the Messiah you go the the OT, but if you want to know what the OT was all about all we have to do is know God through Jesus. We don’t look at the OT as a revelation of God. It was a revelation of our affiliation with sin and our condemnation. Jesus is the perfect image of the Father and the only full revelation of truth this world has ever seen.

Hi MM,

Paul calls the 10 Commandment (engraved in letters on stone) “the ministry that condemns” and says that it is “fading away”. He also says that "the ministry of death", the 10 Commandments that bring condemnation, have no glory compared to the ministry of the Spirit that brings righteousness.

What do you mean by “no longer binding”

Didn’t you just say that the 10 Commandments, in Galatians 3, are the schoolmaster who led us to Christ of which we are no longer under?

What does “no longer under”, “ministry of death”, and “fading away” mean to you?

Hebrews 8: 13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

MM: I suppose this is referring to the ceremonial aspects of the law.

S: I find it interesting how you dissect the Old Covenant into whatever part fits your theology.

MM:Timing is everything, as they say. The law of Moses outlined very specific punishments for specific crimes. They were administered under a Theocracy. Nowadays, we are no longer a Theocracy, right? So, things have changed. I do not pretend to understand everything God outlined in the law of Moses. At times I am tempted to think certain aspects of it were unfair. But I immediately recognize such thoughts as the voice of Satan.

T:Maybe you're confusing voices here.

MM:Are you suggesting that it is Jesus who is attempting to speak to my heart, to help me understand that certain aspects of the law of Moses represent the will of Satan?

TE: Now you're misrepresenting what you yourself wrote! I'm glad to know it's not something personal! Reread what you wrote, and where I made my comment, and it should be clear what I'm suggesting.

M:I am convinced that the law of Moses represented God's will for the COI. I am in no way confused as to whether or not it reflects a compromise to accommodate their hard hearts and sinfulness.

T:You seem to be confused to an extent, because you cannot answer a simply question like why God would want women's hands to be cut off. You just say, "I don't know." That sounds like confusion.

MM:Do you know why God commanded Moses to cut off women's hands?

TE: My point has been that God was dealing with a backward and stiffnecked people, and so had to make accommodations for them. This is just one example of that.

MM: One could speculate Jesus commanded this punishment for this particular act in order to emphasize how important it is for men to be able to have children because Jesus would one day be born of a virgin. If women went around grabbing men and preventing them from having children then the virgin would not be born.

TE: But the same thing would apply to men. Why shouldn't men's hands be cut off? Why only women's?

MM: Again, polygamy and capital punishment do not violate the law of God when administered in harmony with the law of Moses. I don't know about lying and stealing. Ananias and Sapphira didn't make out so well when they lied and stole.

TE: According to the statement I've cited a number of times now, polygamy is a sin, contrary to the law of God, never sanctioned in a single instance. Aren't you suggesting that the law of Moses sanctioned it?

MM:That's not how the Bible describes the "strange acts" performed by God. Please show me in Bible where it says such a thing.

TE:Ok. Here's an example:

And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. (Numbers 21:5,6)

MM:How does this example address my question? How does it support your view?

TE: God's "strange act" is his giving someone up for destruction. The fiery serpents are an example of that.

MM: Please cite an example of Jesus, while here in the flesh, sending fiery serpents to punish people. And, while you are at it, please post an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection and allowing evil angels to kill people. Thank you. By the way, am I correct in assuming you believe God does these kinds of things?

TE: We've been through this several times already. You've asked me to provide examples, and I did. If you don't like the examples, fine, but there's no point in just asking for the same thing over and over again.

TE: Regarding your question on polygamy, my answer is that polygamy is contrary to God's will, was never sanctioned by Him in a single instance, and is a violation of His law.

MM: Yes, I know you believe this, but my question doesn't have anything to do with this. I am specifically interested in learning what you believe about the law of Moses which makes provisions for a man to have more than one wife. Is he guilty of sinning if he acts in harmony with the law of Moses and takes more than one wife? Do you understand my question? If not, I will attempt to state it in a way you can understand. Thank you. Please believe me, I am not being facetious or sarcastic.

TE: You were being sarcastic when you wrote "Thank you for stating the obvious."

Here's an EGW statement:



Using this definition for sin, I would say no, not guilty of sinning.

How would you have him say this MM? I think he's making a valid point, and it doesn't seem to me that he made it in an unkind way. However, I respect completely that you are the one reading the comments and apparently felt offended. That's your right. How could he have made the point that you are accepting some things and rejecting others in order to fit with your theology in a way which would not have been offense?

How is it an example of God giving them up to destruction? What did He do, or not do, that resulted in snakes suddenly biting people and then suddenly stop biting them?

I seem to recall you citing Jesus predicting the destruction of Jerusalem as an example of Jesus withdrawing His protection while here in the flesh. If this is your example, then I don't see how it fits. I asked you for an example of Jesus doing it while here in the flesh, not 40 years after He returned to heaven.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

"We don’t look at the OT as a revelation of God." Scott, do you have inspired statements to support this idea? Are your thoughts on this similar to the following inspired thoughts?

God designed the Bible to be a lesson-book to all mankind, in childhood, youth, and manhood, and to be studied through all time. He gave His Word to men as a revelation of Himself. . . . It is the medium of communication between God and man. {FLB 10.5}

In the truths of His word, God has given to men a revelation of Himself; and to all who accept them they are a shield against the deceptions of Satan. It is a neglect of these truths that has opened the door to the evils which are now becoming so widespread in the religious world. {GC 465.1}

The whole Bible is a revelation of the glory of God in Christ. Received, believed, obeyed, it is the great instrumentality in the transformation of character. It is the grand stimulus, the constraining force, that quickens the physical, mental, and spiritual powers and directs the life into right channels. {1MCP 93.4}

The solemn service of sacrifice and worship at the sanctuary and the utterances of the prophets were a revelation of God. {PP 592.2}

Jesus said of the Old Testament Scriptures,--and how much more is it true of the New,--"They are they which testify of Me," the Redeemer, Him in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered. John 5:39. Yes, the whole Bible tells of Christ. From the first record of creation--for "without Him was not anything made that was made"--to the closing promise, "Behold, I come quickly," we are reading of His works and listening to His voice. John 1:3; Revelation 22:12. If you would become acquainted with the Saviour, study the Holy Scriptures. {SC 88.1}

The Old Testament sheds light upon the New, and the New upon the Old. Each is a revelation of the glory of God in Christ. Christ as manifested to the patriarchs, as symbolized in the sacrificial service, as portrayed in the law, and as revealed by the prophets is the riches of the Old Testament. Christ in His life, His death, and His resurrection; Christ as He is manifested by the Holy Spirit, is the treasure of the New. Both Old and New present truths that will continually reveal new depths of meaning to the earnest seeker. {CT 462.3}

Often as He had presented the Old Testament Scriptures, and showed their application to Himself and His work of atonement, they had been awakened by His Spirit, and lifted into a heavenly atmosphere. Of the spiritual truths spoken by the prophets they had a clearer understanding than had the original writers themselves. Hereafter they would read the Old Testament Scriptures, not as the doctrines of the scribes and Pharisees, not as the utterances of wise men who were dead, but as a new revelation from God. {DA 494.3}

The two witnesses represent the Scriptures of the Old and the New Testament. Both are important testimonies to the origin and perpetuity of the law of God. Both are witnesses also to the plan of salvation. The types, sacrifices, and prophecies of the Old Testament point forward to a Saviour to come. The Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament tell of a Saviour who has come in the exact manner foretold by type and prophecy. {GC 267.1}

It was Christ that spoke to His people through the prophets. The apostle Peter, writing to the Christian church, says that the prophets "prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow." 1 Peter 1:10, 11. It is the voice of Christ that speaks to us through the Old Testament. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10. {PP 366.3}

The Old Testament sheds light upon the New, and the New upon the Old. Each is a revelation of the glory of God in Christ. Christ as manifested to the patriarchs, as symbolized in the sacrificial service, as portrayed in the law, and as revealed by the prophets is the riches of the Old Testament. Christ in His life, His death, and His resurrection; Christ as He is manifested by the Holy Spirit, is the treasure of the New. Both Old and New present truths that will continually reveal new depths of meaning to the earnest seeker. {CT 462.3}

Jesus said of the Old Testament Scriptures,--and how much more is it true of the New,--"They are they which testify of Me," the Redeemer, Him in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered. John 5:39. Yes, the whole Bible tells of Christ. From the first record of creation--for "without Him was not anything made that was made"--to the closing promise, "Behold, I come quickly," we are reading of His works and listening to His voice. John 1:3; Revelation 22:12. If you would become acquainted with the Saviour, study the Holy Scriptures. {SC 88.1}