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Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Bob Pickle] #100597
07/06/08 01:00 AM
07/06/08 01:00 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: Bob Pickle
I've wondered about the story about Micaiah. Was he being sarcastic? Was that how Ahab knew he wasn't telling him the truth?

Can anyone tell us if the Jews use/recognize sarcasm in their Hebrew language today?

The reason I ask is that in the Asian languages that I've become acquainted with so far, sarcasm is not used. In fact, it is difficult for the ESL students to grasp the concept at times. And I have also seen that the traditional oriental cultures are quite similar to the biblical cultures (e.g. respectfulness, gift giving, dowry system, removing shoes in sacred places, modesty, use of incense, etc.).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Daryl] #100604
07/06/08 02:14 AM
07/06/08 02:14 AM
Daryl  Offline
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,121
Nova Scotia, Canada
Somebody I know in another forum sees it this way:
 Quote:

The way I see the term 'false witness' is to tell lies (untruths) about that person for the intent of causing them harm (ie, prison time or death row, etc.

But lying to SAVE someone from harm is NOT bearing false witness.

What do you all think of this?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Daryl] #100609
07/06/08 04:08 AM
07/06/08 04:08 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Got a story for you. True story, but wish I could document it. Good for a study on "situational ethics" I suppose.

----

A mother took her two sons to the store shopping one day. While in the store, she chanced to meet an old friend whom she had not seen in many years. Her friend knew something that neither of her boys knew--that one of them had been adopted. It so happened that the woman's birth son was a very stable, happy boy, full of confidence and positive. The adopted son, perhaps on account of some of his pre-adoption environment, had always been moody and insecure, and required more tender loving care. He lacked the sort of confidence that the woman's birth son had. Having always treated them alike, and yet seeing these great differences in their dispositions, the adoptive parents had chosen not to further burden the adoptive child with a knowledge of the fact. Neither of the children were aware of it, having been brought up together from their earliest memories.

Now, in the store, the woman's friend in utter callousness, abruptly asked her "So, which one is the adopted one?"

That one of them should be adopted was news to the boys. The woman was forced, in an inopportune time, to single one of them out. She pointed to her own son.

Many years later, after his mother had passed away, the real son was going through some of things, and found the story recorded in her diary. Only then did he know that he was not adopted. But it had never mattered to him. He had been happy then, and was still happy now...and he saw wisdom in what she had done.

----

Thoughts?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100620
07/06/08 05:29 AM
07/06/08 05:29 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:

Somebody I know in another forum sees it this way:

Quote:

The way I see the term 'false witness' is to tell lies (untruths) about that person for the intent of causing them harm (ie, prison time or death row, etc.

But lying to SAVE someone from harm is NOT bearing false witness.

What do you all think of this?


One of Satan's arguments against God is that His law is defective. If he is correct, it makes sense that one would need to do things like bear false witness in order to prevent others from harm. However, if the law is not defective, then it doesn't make sense. Did Jesus Christ ever bear false witness to prevent another from suffering harm? I can't even imagine Him doing so. Can you?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Tom] #100622
07/06/08 05:43 AM
07/06/08 05:43 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

One of Satan's arguments against God is that His law is defective. If he is correct, it makes sense that one would need to do things like bear false witness in order to prevent others from harm. However, if the law is not defective, then it doesn't make sense. Did Jesus Christ ever bear false witness to prevent another from suffering harm? I can't even imagine Him doing so. Can you?

Well, I simply see the situation as us too narrowly defining things to fit our limited view. In other words, maybe "lying" is not what we suppose it to be. Perhaps it's the principal motive and attitude that count most, and less a matter of the words themselves. Perhaps there are other factors.

For example, if we were to say that anything less than telling "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" equals "lying", then I think we have cast the net so wide with our narrow view as to catch Jesus Himself in it. Jesus never revealed the whole truth. If we were to be exposed to the entire truth, none of us could bear it.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100633
07/06/08 01:25 PM
07/06/08 01:25 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Let's take a look again at what Ellen White says.

false witness is defined as

1) false speaking - anything you speak which is not true is a lie.

2) omission of truth by which injury may result to others - the omission of truth is not a lie if it will not result in injury to others, but it is a lie if it will result in injury to others.

So we have to distinguish between false speaking and omission of truth.

Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Rosangela] #100638
07/06/08 02:39 PM
07/06/08 02:39 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela

1) false speaking - anything you speak which is not true is a lie.

2) omission of truth by which injury may result to others - the omission of truth is not a lie if it will not result in injury to others, but it is a lie if it will result in injury to others.

So we have to distinguish between false speaking and omission of truth.

So what does one do when the truth itself will cause injury? We don't have the saying in English "truth hurts" for nothing! \:\) Truth can kill! If truth is a weapon (e.g. a sword), how should we wield it?

 Originally Posted By: Ellen White

The Lord Jesus was the light of the world, the greatest witness for truth the world has ever seen. When necessary He spoke truths which were keen and cutting as a two-edged sword, and sent them home to the conscience so forcibly that the priests and rulers could not bear His words, and planned again and again to put Him to death. But when they sought to take His life, He departed to other places. {12MR 309.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Daryl] #100641
07/06/08 03:42 PM
07/06/08 03:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
"False speaking in any matter, every attempt or purpose to deceive our neighbor, is here included. An intention to deceive is what constitutes falsehood. By a glance of the eye, a motion of the hand, an expression of the countenance, a falsehood may be told as effectually as by words. All intentional overstatement, every hint or insinuation calculated to convey an erroneous or exaggerated impression, even the statement of facts in such a manner as to mislead, is falsehood. This precept forbids every effort to injure our neighbor's reputation by misrepresentation or evil surmising, by slander or tale bearing. Even the intentional suppression of truth, by which injury may result to others, is a violation of the ninth commandment. {PP 309.3}

In the following passage "the statement of facts" were expressed "in such a manner as to mislead", right? Rather than just going 3 days outside of Egypt, wasn't it Jesus' intention to bring the COI all the way to Canaan?

Exodus
3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Mountain Man] #100660
07/06/08 10:58 PM
07/06/08 10:58 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Lying involves intent. If you think something is true, but it's not, that is not a lie, that's just ignorance. Similarly, if you think something is true, but it really isn't, and you present it as being false, this is a lie, even though the thing actually is false. This is because it is the intent which determines where a thing stated is a lie or not.

 Quote:
A lie (also called prevarication) is a type of deception in the form of an untruthful statement with the intention to deceive .... To lie is to state something one believes is false with the intention that it be taken for the truth by someone else....Even a true statement can be considered a lie if the person making that statement is doing so to deceive. In this situation, it is the intent of being untruthful rather than the truthfulness of the statement itself that is considered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is There A Difference Between Bearing False Witness And Lying? [Re: Green Cochoa] #100678
07/07/08 05:00 PM
07/07/08 05:00 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
So what does one do when the truth itself will cause injury? We don't have the saying in English "truth hurts" for nothing! \:\) Truth can kill! If truth is a weapon (e.g. a sword), how should we wield it?

If truth itself will cause injury, you can omit it. You must decide what will cause more injury - the revelation of truth or its omission.

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