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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: scott] #100831
07/11/08 07:53 PM
07/11/08 07:53 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, no one has been saved except under the NC.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: scott] #100832
07/11/08 07:56 PM
07/11/08 07:56 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Nice post, Scott. Especially the following I felt was well put:

 Quote:
In their economy and mentality there was no work for women, no support, no jobs available and had God forbade multiple wives there could have been a wave of prostitution and undo disrespect for unfortunate women who lost their husbands.


This is a good point, too:

 Quote:
Again I say that the laws allowing multiple marriages reflect what is in our hearts and not what is in Gods!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: scott] #100840
07/11/08 11:10 PM
07/11/08 11:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: scott
Hi MM,

We are all sinners and all stand guilty before God. God, in His wisdom and mercy, didn't try to correct all of our misunderstandings at once. He is patient and good and is a friend to sinners. Some things He corrected right away like stealing and killing, but others had roots deeply embedded in society such as multiple wives.

In their economy and mentality there was no work for women, no support, no jobs available and had God forbade multiple wives there could have been a wave of prostitution and undo disrespect for unfortunate women who lost their husbands. Thus God didn't make an issue about woman's rights until the last couple hundred years. And look how long it's taken to get to where we are. We still resist! Most of the world still thinks of women as inferior. As John Lennon put it, "Women are the niggers of the world" and it is sad that a rock star recognized what many religious fanatics can't see to this day.

We, as Christians, need to be on the front line for woman’s dignity! Jesus gave His life for our freedom.

To answer your question; I think polygamy is vial and is a sin on par with bigotry and racism, but God made provision for it because of the hardness of our hearts just like divorce! Again I say that the laws allowing multiple marriages reflect what is in our hearts and not what is in Gods!

Thank you, Scott, for candidly answering my question. Your thoughts lead me to another question: Did God permit sinning in the law of Moses because of culture and hardness of hearts?

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100841
07/11/08 11:15 PM
07/11/08 11:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Oh, by the way, Scott, what do you think of the following insights:

The minds of the people, blinded and debased by slavery and heathenism, were not prepared to appreciate fully the far-reaching principles of God's ten precepts. That the obligations of the Decalogue might be more fully understood and enforced, additional precepts were given, illustrating and applying the principles of the Ten Commandments. These laws were called judgments, both because they were framed in infinite wisdom and equity and because the magistrates were to give judgment according to them. Unlike the Ten Commandments, they were delivered privately to Moses, who was to communicate them to the people. {PP 310.1}

The object of all these regulations was stated: they proceeded from no exercise of mere arbitrary sovereignty; all were given for the good of Israel. The Lord said, "Ye shall be holy men unto Me"--worthy to be acknowledged by a holy God. {PP 311.2}

If framed in infinite wisdom and equity for the good of Israel, how, then, can it be said the law of Moses reflected the culture and sinfulness of Jews? The word equity is defined as:

1. The state, quality, or ideal of being just, impartial, and fair.
2. Something that is just, impartial, and fair.

This suggests women were not treated prejudicially in the law of Moses, right?

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100852
07/12/08 06:10 AM
07/12/08 06:10 AM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Quote:
By MM: Thank you, Scott, for candidly answering my question. Your thoughts lead me to another question: Did God permit sinning in the law of Moses because of culture and hardness of hearts?


What do you mean by "Did God permit sinning"? God accepts sinners! Does that mean that God permits sinning? Yes! Should He strike every sinner down dead? Jesus was a friend of sinners. Does that mean He permits sinning? God hates sin, but loves the sinner and works for the sinner’s salvation.

God is not repelled by our sins, but we are repelled and shamed by His righteousness towards sinners. It is God's goodness that leads us to repentance, not God pious arrogance against those who don't measure up.

Sometimes the things you say leave me thinking you don't really know God at all. You are repelled by God's goodness and hold the position against the idea that God is so good. You insist that He demand an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth or He isn't just.

I don't usually quote Ellen, but you remind me so much of this statement I must.

 Quote:
In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner. {DA 761.4}


Why does it bother you so that some people believe that God can forgive without demanding blood? Why is it so important to you that people who don’t repent get what is coming to them? Isn’t eternal loss of life and eternal separation from God enough punishment? Maybe God could tie them all up and make all of us saints slug those unrepentant sinners in the face for a week or two before the barbeque!

Count me out!

scott

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: scott] #100856
07/12/08 02:44 PM
07/12/08 02:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Scott, I'm sorry you think I feel God is mean and ugly. Truly, I did not feel this way about Him. I agree with you that He is merciful and loving, not willing that any should be lost. He leaves no stone unturned to win and woo sinners back to His warm and loving embrace.

But my question concerns the law of Moses. Did God permit sinning in the law of Moses because of culture and hardness of hearts? In other words, did He compromise in the law of Moses to accommodate sin-hardened Hebrews? Did He include some of their sinful practices in the law of Moses because they were not ready learn and live the whole truth? Was He intending to fix things later on, to set things right as soon as they were able to grasp and appreciate the truth? Was He willing to wink at certain sins for a season? Did He temporarily permit sinning in the law of Moses?

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100857
07/12/08 03:21 PM
07/12/08 03:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
"Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice."

Scott, do you disagree with these insights? She also had the following to say about "every sin":

5BC 1087
Satan will be judged by his own idea of justice. It was his plea that every sin should meet its punishment. If God remitted the punishment, he said, He was not a God of truth or justice. Satan will meet the judgment which he said God should exercise (MS 111, 1897). {5BC 1087.4}

GC 539
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

 Quote:
GW 216
Every sin is an offense against God, and is to be confessed to Him through Christ. {GW 216.3}

DA 111
Every sin, every discord, every defiling lust that transgression had brought, was torture to His spirit. {DA 111.4}

DA 300
By every sin Jesus is wounded afresh; and as we look upon Him whom we have pierced, we mourn for the sins that have brought anguish upon Him. {DA 300.3}

FLB 101
The guilt of every sin pressed its weight upon the divine soul of the world's Redeemer. {FLB 101.3}

GC 666
As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. {GC 666.2}

NL 28
Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. {NL 28.1}

PP 203
Those who are unwilling to forsake every sin and to seek earnestly for God's blessing, will not obtain it. {PP 203.2}

1SM 218
Not one of those ten precepts can be broken without disloyalty to the God of heaven. The least deviation from its requirements, by neglect or willful transgression, is sin, and every sin exposes the sinner to the wrath of God. {1SM 218.2}

TG 350
Every sin, every unrighteous action, every transgression of the law of God, tells with a thousandfold more force upon the actor than the sufferer. Every time one of the glorious faculties with which God has enriched man is abused or misused, that faculty loses forever a portion of its vigor and will never be as it was before the abuse it suffered. Every abuse inflicted upon our moral nature in this life is felt not only for time but for eternity. Though God may forgive the sinner, yet eternity will not make up that voluntary loss sustained in this life. {TDG 350.1}

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100870
07/13/08 02:27 AM
07/13/08 02:27 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Satan will be judged by his own idea of justice.


This is quite profound. It's true of everyone.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Tom] #100872
07/13/08 05:20 AM
07/13/08 05:20 AM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
Satan will be judged by his own idea of justice.


This is quite profound. It's true of everyone.


The fact that Jesus told us that if we forgive we will be forgiven and if we refuse to forgive God will not forgive us tells me that those who are saved are those who forgive!

If I demand my eye for an eye then I set the criteria of my own judgment. If I forgive then I do the same!

That is profound!

scott

Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment? [Re: Mountain Man] #100873
07/13/08 05:33 AM
07/13/08 05:33 AM
S
scott  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 442
Wyoming, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Scott, I'm sorry you think I feel God is mean and ugly. Truly, I did not feel this way about Him. I agree with you that He is merciful and loving, not willing that any should be lost. He leaves no stone unturned to win and woo sinners back to His warm and loving embrace.

But my question concerns the law of Moses. Did God permit sinning in the law of Moses because of culture and hardness of hearts? In other words, did He compromise in the law of Moses to accommodate sin-hardened Hebrews? Did He include some of their sinful practices in the law of Moses because they were not ready learn and live the whole truth? Was He intending to fix things later on, to set things right as soon as they were able to grasp and appreciate the truth? Was He willing to wink at certain sins for a season? Did He temporarily permit sinning in the law of Moses?


Hi MM,

I agree with everything you wrote, but still don’t understand what you mean when you say, “Did He (God) temporarily permit sinning in the Law of Moses”.

This confuses me! It seems to me that God permitted sinning in Eden! He made us free will agents which to me simply means that He doesn’t control our minds. The nature of freedom is that God permits us to choose. If we choose sin then God respects our choice.

I believe that God does wink at our ignorance and I think this is what you mean by “permitting sinning”. I don’t think that the Law of Moses even made an attempt to cover every possible cultural misconception. It was a step in the right direction always pointing to the sanctuary ceremonies as an object lesson of salvation through Christ.

The people sinned out of ignorance and God came and pitched His tent with them. It is in the presence of God that we find healing. What stops men from entering God’s presence? Fear, misunderstanding, and lies believed about God! What did Jesus reveal about God? That we had nothing to fear from Him, but that we needed to draw near to Him!

scott

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