I took what you wrote seriously. That is, I assumed you were serious when you addressed my two questions by saying the moral imperfections the thief took with him to the grave would be regarded as "morally immature" in the resurrection. Please explain how his sinful habits will go from moral imperfections to merely morally immature habits in the "twinkling of an eye".


I meant cultivated sinful traits of character. Character is not neutral; it is either sinful or sinless. You said the thief took certain uncrucified cultivated sinful traits of character with him to the grave. Then you said in the resurrection these certain sinful traits of character will be reclassified as "morally mature", that it wouldn't make sense to label them "moral imperfections". Do you really believe this, or did I misunderstand you?

By the way, the quote you posted above does not address this situation. Instead, she is describing the process of sanctification, which happens before people die. She wrote - "At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement."

You seem to think this means the Holy Spirit will be able to gradually make born again believers aware that certain of their habits and cultivated traits of character are sinful, and that these things need to be confessed and crucified. But the "continual advancement" she is referring to has to do with "perfecting holiness", not unperfecting unholiness. Here's how she put it elsewhere:

ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}

HP 186
It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity. {HP 186.6}

Do you see what I mean? "... an advance from one stage of perfection to another." Not an advance from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection until we achieve perfection. It's not a process of devolution.


I didn't say anything about it before this recent volley. I was merely addressing your observation regarding my moral perfection and whether or not I still need mercy. I answered it as you have instructed me. I thought I was being a good student.

In case you misunderstood me, though, let me clarify. By "in Christ" I do not mean certain of our sinful habits and cultivated traits of character are unknown to us, and that in Christ God winks at them until the Holy Spirit is finally able to get through to us, or that in Christ God treats us as if we are sinless whereas in reality we are very faulty and defective. Do you see what I mean?

Instead, I am implying that although people experience moral perfection the moment they crucify their old man habits of sin, their cultivated sinful traits of character, it does not mean they have learned how to obey and observe "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded. See Matthew 28:19-20. For example, they might not have learned how to obey and observe the 7th day Sabbath before they experienced the miracle of rebirth. This is not a moral or immoral issue until they are convicted of the truth. Do you know what I mean?

With 'Christ in you, the hope of glory', there should be no desire to sin, for He never had such desire. Sin found no responding chord in His mind.

The real issue is surrender, subjection, but these are only accomplished by faith. Peter had not fully surrendered his own will when he thrice denied the Saviour. If we are in subjection to Christ and His Spirit dwells within us, our motives and actions will be heaven directed. Our choices will be correct. When we see light, we will not call it darkness and thereby grieve the Spirit.

Though never a Sabbathkeeper or monogamous, a Spirit-led soul will advance from strength to strength as Christ leads him into all truth. This I understand to be sanctification, accepting the light as it comes and walking in it. The thief on the cross surrendered fully and was ready to follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.

The 'partially converted' man wants to serve two masters because he cannot trust and fully surrender to His Creator and the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ. This is not surrender, but rebellion, choosing his own will over God's will.

To clarify, I understand sanctification as living up to all the light God shows us. Such will be no burden for the human who is subject to Christ. There will be no conflict.

"Will Jesus change our character when He returns?"

NO.

Sorry, I haven't read the entire discussion, but just thought I would enter my response.

Jesus will change our character NOW, if, and only if, we are beholding Him. By beholding, we become changed. At the time of Jesus' arrival, it is then too late to perfect our characters.

However, we will never stop learning. Knowledge and character are two separate things.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You asked, "Would you apply the same term to the sinful habits and traits of character the thief took to the grave with him? Or, will they change names or titles after Jesus resurrects him?"

Change to what, for example? What good would changing the name or title of a term do? Why are you asking this question?

Green Cochoa

What is being talked about in 1 Cor. 15:50-53. What is changed at the last trumpet if it isnt our character?

Aaron

Aaron,

That's a very important question. I would encourage you to read it carefully again, and ponder exactly what is being said. However, I will honor your question with an answer.

We now have mortal, diseased, and weakened bodies due to sin. Our bodies will be changed into new ones. When the Bible (KJV) speaks of "incorruptible," it is referring to the fact that our bodies will no longer see death and disease. From Jesus' words to the Sadducees, we can also deduce another change that will happen with our bodies at that time: we will become like angels, which do not marry. I believe we'll be able to fly in Heaven. Does this mean we'll have wings? I'm hoping to be able to have greater hearing and vision. We truly don't know all of what God has planned, but I trust we will be well satisfied.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What do you mean by this? In particular, do you think a born again person has a sinless character? (i.e. all born again people have sinless characters).

Tom, please consider the following:


In the above quote, Sister White wrote - "Through the power of Christ, men and women have broken the chains of sinful habit. They have renounced selfishness."

You seem to qualify this insight by saying she obviously isn't referring to all sinful habits or to all selfishness. Do you have quotes where she qualifies it in this way?

She also wrote - "He who has determined to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory."

You seem to interpret this to mean they will discover certain, hitherto unrevealed sinful habits after they are born again; or, you seem to say they will gradually see their unrevealed sinfulness and selfishness in a new and proper light as the Holy Spirit is able to get through to them. Where does she articulate this idea?

Amen. I also like how "true sanctification" is defined and described in the following passages:

"True sanctification is a Bible doctrine. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonian church, declares: "This is the will of God, even your sanctification." And he prays: "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly." 1 Thessalonians 4:3; 5:23. The Bible clearly teaches what sanctification is and how it is to be attained. The Saviour prayed for His disciples: "Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth." John 17:17. And Paul teaches that believers are to be "sanctified by the Holy Ghost." Romans 15:16. What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Jesus told His disciples: "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." John 16:13. And the psalmist says: "Thy law is the truth." By the word and the Spirit of God are opened to men the great principles of righteousness embodied in His law. And since the law of God is "holy, and just, and good," a transcript of the divine perfection, it follows that a character formed by obedience to that law will be holy. Christ is a perfect example of such a character. He says: "I have kept My Father's commandments." "I do always those things that please Him." John 15:10; 8:29. The followers of Christ are to become like Him--by the grace of God to form characters in harmony with the principles of His holy law. This is Bible sanctification. {GC 469.2}

"Obedience to the law of God is sanctification. There are many who have erroneous ideas in regard to this work in the soul, but Jesus prayed that His disciples might be sanctified through the truth, and added, "Thy word is truth" (John 17:17). Sanctification is not an instantaneous but a progressive work, as obedience is continuous. Just as long as Satan urges his temptations upon us, the battle for self-conquest will have to be fought over and over again; but by obedience, the truth will sanctify the soul. Those who are loyal to the truth will, through the merits of Christ, overcome all weakness of character that has led them to be molded by every varying circumstance of life. {FW 85.2}

"True sanctification is nothing more or less than to love God with all the heart, to walk in His commandments and ordinances blameless. Sanctification is not an emotion but a heaven-born principle that brings all the passions and desires under the control of the Spirit of God; and this work is done through our Lord and Saviour. {FW 87.1}

"Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. {FLB 116.5}

"The Sabbath given to the world as the sign of God as the Creator is also the sign of Him as the Sanctifier. The power that created all things is the power that recreates the soul in His own likeness. To those who keep holy the Sabbath day it is the sign of sanctification. True sanctification is harmony with God, oneness with Him in character. It is received through obedience to those principles that are the transcript of His character. And the Sabbath is the sign of obedience. He who from the heart obeys the fourth commandment will obey the whole law. He is sanctified through obedience. {AG 156.3}

"Sanctification is not merely a theory, an emotion, or a form of words, but a living, active principle, entering into the everyday life. It requires that our habits of eating, drinking, and dressing be such as to secure the preservation of physical, mental, and moral health, that we may present to the Lord our bodies--not an offering corrupted by wrong habits but--"a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." Romans 12:1. {CH 67.1}

MM, I asked a simple question:



Is your answer, "yes"?

Regarding sinful habits, I understand here to mean habits which are known, not habits which are unknown. Do you have some statement in mind where she says that when a person is born again that all unknown sinful habits are made known? I don't understand how you could maintain such a position if you have known any born again people. Either that, or you have an entirely different idea of what it means to be born again than is customary (which seems very likely; it appears to me that you don't believe one is born again when one accepts Christ as one's personal Savior, but rather that you understand "born again" to mean "perfect in character.")

Where's the thread where you are discussing this with Rosangela? I agree with what she's been saying regarding sinful habits being revealed.