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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tom]
#101245
08/01/08 12:22 PM
08/01/08 12:22 PM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
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Richard, I think you may be making things overly complicated. Let's start with the scapegoat: Satan not only bore the weight and punishment of his sins, but the sins of all the redeemed host had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of the souls which he had caused.(1SG 218) The idea of the sins being transferred to the scapegoat is simply communicating the truth that Satan bears the responsibility for that which he has caused. Please note that his suffering is not limited to the sins of the righteous he has caused. Indeed, that's not such a big deal, since they've been forgiven. His greater responsibility will be regarding those he has caused to be lost. Sins are not literally transferred as if they were loaves of bread. Sin is in our character. We must be freed from sin in order to abide in God's presence, because God is good, and sin is bad. The problem is sin. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.
In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. (DA 107, 108) Note the same thing that slays the wicked gives life to the righteous. What causes the problem? The revelation of God's character (aka the "light of the glory of God"). Why? Because of sin. Those who cling to sin cannot bear the revelation of God's character, as EGW explained. Therefore the entire work of the Gospel is the revelation of God's character that we may be set right with God and thus freed from sin, and saved from death. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90) Tom, Please help me out, as I have never come across this precise issue before, so its a bit hard for me to grasp and to come to a complete understanding on it... Rick
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Colin]
#101246
08/01/08 12:25 PM
08/01/08 12:25 PM
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OP
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Thanks, Richard, for highlighting the point that the scapegoat represents the devil, and plays no part in atoning for believers. What of Jesus, our substitute for sin's penalty of eternal death, not suffering @ Calvary the 2nd death of the final judgement against sin he himself saves us from by his death for sin, in the sacrifice of the atonement in the 'real' sanctuary service of God? How could his mortal death make Jesus the world's Saviour from eternal death, for which he is the substitute??...
This isn't based on any pagan theory of substitution: this is the just wrath of God against sin needing meting out and God himself providing the propitiation in Christ's sacrifice. The pagan version has the human worshipper appeasing the "wrath" of the heathen idol, only there is no wrath in the heathen definition of appeasement, better called expiation: heathen expiation omits divine wrath against sin, and is offered by humans. Biblical propitiation involves just wrath against sin and God himself giving his only begotten Son to propitiate for our sins by his blood. How can Christ's propitiation by his blood not involve dying the 2nd death of sin as our substitute???... Colin, I am studying that, it somehow came to my attention in some other issues I was looking at... Rick
Last edited by Richard; 08/01/08 12:26 PM.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#101247
08/01/08 12:28 PM
08/01/08 12:28 PM
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By Tammy: I haven't thought what I'm going to say out real far, so, I'm not sure about it...but we are told that Jesus was the "first fruit" of the righteous, right? What death do the righteous suffer? Only the 1st, as only the wicked will suffer the 2nd Death. So, if He was the First Fruit of the righteous, and the death the righteous suffer is the 1st Death, then it seems clear that is the death that He suffered as well. Hi Tammy, I like this very well. I think that the idea that Christ died the second death comes from the Papal/Calvinistic view of the atonement. It is called penal substitution where God’s insulted integrity demands (God’s law demands) Jesus suffer enough to include the punishment due to the vilest sinner. According to this view Jesus must suffer physical pain equal or greater than what the worst repentant sinner deserves. Otherwise the justice of God would be compromised. So Christ suffers the collective debt for all those who are saved so that they can be acquitted and given a free ticket to heaven. Christ becomes the proverbial “whipping boy” for our sins. What you said makes much more sense to me. Any way that Christ died would resemble both the first and second death because death is death. Both the first and second death result in the physical shutdown of bodily functions. For one group this shut down is only temporary, but to the other it is permanent. The cause of death seems to be what is more important than the death itself. What do you think is the cause of the 2nd death? scott Well Scott, I guess I would say that the 2nd Death is the result of the need to wipe out all sin and sinners, and to ensure that sin never rises again. Those who die the 1st Death and who are translated, have been proven "safe to save". Here is a description of those who will die in the 2nd Death - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8. I honestly don't understand how anyone can put Christ in with this class of people...it is a mystery to me. And then, we have this text, Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6. This text clearly connects the "first resurrection" with Christ. No one who dies the 2nd Death, rises in the first resurrection. All the texts in the Bible that reference the 2nd Death, none of them even hint that Jesus died that death. I think you are right, Scott, when you said, I think that the idea that Christ died the second death comes from the Papal/Calvinistic view of the atonement. It is called penal substitution where God’s insulted integrity demands (God’s law demands) Jesus suffer enough to include the punishment due to the vilest sinner. According to this view Jesus must suffer physical pain equal or greater than what the worst repentant sinner deserves. Otherwise the justice of God would be compromised. So Christ suffers the collective debt for all those who are saved so that they can be acquitted and given a free ticket to heaven. Christ becomes the proverbial “whipping boy” for our sins. We give Protestants a real reason to question our doctrines, when we teach that Jesus died the 2nd Death. Tammy, I am sitting in the catbird seat with you on this point, and await a better understanding.... Rick
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#101248
08/01/08 02:12 PM
08/01/08 02:12 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Well Scott, I guess I would say that the 2nd Death is the result of the need to wipe out all sin and sinners, and to ensure that sin never rises again. Those who die the 1st Death and who are translated, have been proven "safe to save". (PTI, not being Scott) The need to wipe out all sin and sinners? Sin and sinners do not need to be "wiped out." Sin is a parasite which destroys its victims. Once the victim is destroyed, there is no more sin, as a parasite needs a host. This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764) This makes clear that the destruction of the wicked is not due to God's "wiping them out," but is the inevitable result of their choice. Death is the inevitable result of sin. If sin were innocuous, one could argue that it could need to be wiped out (although, if it were innocuous, perhaps that wouldn't be necessary), but it's not; the inevitable result of sin is death. So God does not need to "wipe out" sinners, but save them. Those who refuse to be saved will suffer the inevitable result of their sin. This text clearly connects the "first resurrection" with Christ. No one who dies the 2nd Death, rises in the first resurrection. All the texts in the Bible that reference the 2nd Death, none of them even hint that Jesus died that death. He "tasted" death (or "suffered" it, as EGW puts it). You're correct that technically Jesus didn't die the second death, since no one rises from that death, but that He "tasted" it is clear from many passages of Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy. From Scripture, there are quite a lot of Psalms, for example, which speak to this, some famous ones being 22, 69, and 88. In the SOP, the Chapters of "Calvary" and "It Is Finished" bring this out, as well as many other passages. In particular, the paragraph I quoted above deals with the theme that death (not sleep, but death) was not understood until Jesus died, and had God allowed Satan and his followers to die before this had been seen, a doubt could have arisen regarding God's character.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tom]
#101249
08/01/08 02:16 PM
08/01/08 02:16 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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(Richard)Please help me out, as I have never come across this precise issue before, so its a bit hard for me to grasp and to come to a complete understanding on it... Happy to help, but I mentioned several things. I'm not sure what "this precise issue" that you're referring to is. What is it you are saying is hard for you to grasp and have a complete understanding of?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#101250
08/01/08 02:39 PM
08/01/08 02:39 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
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The penalty for man's transgression is death. There was no 1st or 2nd Death before Adam & Eve sinned. When they sinned, immediately, things changed, in nature as well as in man. So, when Adam physically died at the age of 930, that was enough to satisfy the "wages" of sin? No other kind of death was required?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Rick H]
#101252
08/01/08 03:48 PM
08/01/08 03:48 PM
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By Tammy: I haven't thought what I'm going to say out real far, so, I'm not sure about it...but we are told that Jesus was the "first fruit" of the righteous, right? What death do the righteous suffer? Only the 1st, as only the wicked will suffer the 2nd Death. So, if He was the First Fruit of the righteous, and the death the righteous suffer is the 1st Death, then it seems clear that is the death that He suffered as well. Hi Tammy, I like this very well. I think that the idea that Christ died the second death comes from the Papal/Calvinistic view of the atonement. It is called penal substitution where God’s insulted integrity demands (God’s law demands) Jesus suffer enough to include the punishment due to the vilest sinner. According to this view Jesus must suffer physical pain equal or greater than what the worst repentant sinner deserves. Otherwise the justice of God would be compromised. So Christ suffers the collective debt for all those who are saved so that they can be acquitted and given a free ticket to heaven. Christ becomes the proverbial “whipping boy” for our sins. What you said makes much more sense to me. Any way that Christ died would resemble both the first and second death because death is death. Both the first and second death result in the physical shutdown of bodily functions. For one group this shut down is only temporary, but to the other it is permanent. The cause of death seems to be what is more important than the death itself. What do you think is the cause of the 2nd death? scott Well Scott, I guess I would say that the 2nd Death is the result of the need to wipe out all sin and sinners, and to ensure that sin never rises again. Those who die the 1st Death and who are translated, have been proven "safe to save". Here is a description of those who will die in the 2nd Death - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8. I honestly don't understand how anyone can put Christ in with this class of people...it is a mystery to me. And then, we have this text, Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6. This text clearly connects the "first resurrection" with Christ. No one who dies the 2nd Death, rises in the first resurrection. All the texts in the Bible that reference the 2nd Death, none of them even hint that Jesus died that death. I think you are right, Scott, when you said, I think that the idea that Christ died the second death comes from the Papal/Calvinistic view of the atonement. It is called penal substitution where God’s insulted integrity demands (God’s law demands) Jesus suffer enough to include the punishment due to the vilest sinner. According to this view Jesus must suffer physical pain equal or greater than what the worst repentant sinner deserves. Otherwise the justice of God would be compromised. So Christ suffers the collective debt for all those who are saved so that they can be acquitted and given a free ticket to heaven. Christ becomes the proverbial “whipping boy” for our sins. We give Protestants a real reason to question our doctrines, when we teach that Jesus died the 2nd Death. Tammy, I am sitting in the catbird seat with you on this point, and await a better understanding.... Rick Hi Richard and Tammy, I think the "better understanding" is deeply rooted in the Great Controversy. In the Protestant version of the atonement we are on trial and God is the judge. In the GC version God places all of the evidence out in the open and puts Himself on trial in the minds of the whole universe. In the Protestant atonement God judges us, but in the GC we judge the principles of God's kingdom vs. the principles of Satan's kingdom and we either side with God or with Satan. It is a battle of ideas or principles. Satan has lied about God's integrity and cast a shadow on His trustworthiness. He has made God out to be petty, arrogant, arbitrary, manipulative, and one who murders His enemies. Jesus, OTOH, presented a God who loves and works for the salvation of His enemies even at the cost of His own reputation and life. My atonement model is Christus Victor where Christ's substitutionary roll was at the incarnation. He became sin for us simply means that Christ took on humanity along with all of its liabilities. After 4000 years of degeneration Christ comes to this earth and reveals a God who is compassionate with our grief and suffering, One who forgives with both arms, One who loves His children unconditionally and grieves over our predicament. He comes to earth as a man because God gave this earth to the human race and to take back control would be to make Him a liar. So He enters our humanity, defeats Satan at his own game, and becomes the new representative (substitute) of everyone who will believe in Him and submit to His Kingship. He defeats Satan and his lies and then dies the death that sin brought on all of us, our death, but the grave can't hold Him so in the resurrection He even defeats death and offers a resurrection to all men who will believe and trust Him. The legal issue in Christus Victor is over God's right to take over this earth once His word had given it to man. Christ is called Shiloh which means "He who has the right". In the form of God He had no right, but through His willing humility He took our flesh, left heaven and all of its glory, and risked everything by becoming a man to have the right to win some (possibly only one) of us back. He would have taken the risk for only one sinner! What a God we serve! It's time to cast off the Evangelical gospel (come out of Babylon) and embrace the good news that Jesus taught! scott
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: asygo]
#101253
08/01/08 03:57 PM
08/01/08 03:57 PM
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The penalty for man's transgression is death. There was no 1st or 2nd Death before Adam & Eve sinned. When they sinned, immediately, things changed, in nature as well as in man. So, when Adam physically died at the age of 930, that was enough to satisfy the "wages" of sin? No other kind of death was required? Are you asking whether or not God was satisfied with that or if Adam wasn't repentant then God needed to burn him a while and inflict some physical pain on him to satisfy justice. Or maybe if Adam is saved God needs to inflict a little pain and suffering on His Son so that the violent demands of the law are satisfied. Of course since the law is a transcript of God's character one could say that God demands violent physical punishment to satisfy His sense of justice. Have you ever considered the fact that our punishment for sin is exactly what we consider as just? Jesus did say that we will be judged by the same criteria that we judge others. Could it be that our punishment will be the same as we would inflict on others if we were judge and jury? Just a thought! scott
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Tom]
#101254
08/01/08 03:57 PM
08/01/08 03:57 PM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
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(Richard)Please help me out, as I have never come across this precise issue before, so its a bit hard for me to grasp and to come to a complete understanding on it... Happy to help, but I mentioned several things. I'm not sure what "this precise issue" that you're referring to is. What is it you are saying is hard for you to grasp and have a complete understanding of? I was refering to the '2nd death'. To me the 2nd death was always the result of the process at the Heavenly Tabernacle in which God judges who will go to the lake of fire. All who have accepted Christ and the offer of eternal life would be covered by His righteousness and get the first ressurection and would go up and look through the heavently books to see that God was just in how He judged each person. All others were basically left for the process of eternal death in which they were raised up after the 1000 years so they also could see that God is just and then go to the lake of fire or '2nd death'.
Last edited by Richard; 08/01/08 03:59 PM.
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Re: Did Christ died the 'second death' for us...
[Re: Rick H]
#101256
08/01/08 05:57 PM
08/01/08 05:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thanks for the clarification Richard.
It looks to me that you may be operating from a model that looks like this:
a.God decides who will be in each resurrection
b. God treats the people of each resurrection differently
Clearly a) is true, but I don't think b) is. I agree with the model that Scott presented.
I think what destroys the wicked is that they, by refusing to respond to God's overtures through the Holy Spirit, so damage their own character that God's mere presence becomes to them a consuming fire. God treats them just as well as the righteous, but they hate God, they hate His principles, and being around God, or anyone like Him, they find to be extremely undesirable.
So I see the second death as being that which is the result of people whose minds have been warped by sin coming in contact with the God who is love, and having Him fully revealed to them. The reason this revelation destroys them is because a full revelation of God means a full revelation of self.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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