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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: asygo]
#101791
08/22/08 03:13 AM
08/22/08 03:13 AM
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Are the 10C an accurate expression of love? No, I don't think so! I can easily not murder you, yet not love you. I could just be afraid of punishment. Is that keeping the law? by Arnold: Or does being loving sometimes mean breaking one of the 10C? Maybe by the letter of the law, but never by the principle of the law. Can a person be loving and unloving at the same time? I suppose if we loved some and hated others we could protect the ones we love from the ones we don't love. I wonder who God doesn't love! scott
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Tom]
#101794
08/22/08 05:51 PM
08/22/08 05:51 PM
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(Arnold)I can go for that. But since the law is the transcript of God's character, it can't be too incomplete. What about the many statements that the law can only condemn, it cannot forgive? If it were a complete transcript of God's character, that would mean that God can only condemn and not forgive. I didn't say it was complete. Certainly Jesus manifested new light while He was here. However, I still believe it is a transcript of God's character. And the Transcriber was pretty competent, IMO. What do you think is the "law" Paul mentioned in Rom 3:31? If you see that as I do, I think you wouldn't consider the law so inadequate.
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: scott]
#101795
08/22/08 07:22 PM
08/22/08 07:22 PM
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You seem to think that words have more power than context. I was told once that "text without the context is just a pretext." To which I replied, "Context without the text is just a con."
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: scott]
#101797
08/22/08 08:36 PM
08/22/08 08:36 PM
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Maybe this will answer your questions. Does my hand belong to my body? Does the hand act for the body? Can you see my whole body when you see just my hand? Not quite. You seem to be talking about something else. Let's start with the last one. Does Jesus write anything on the heart that contradicts the law He wrote on stone?Or using your analogy, does the hand work against or for the body?
By God's grace,
Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: asygo]
#101802
08/22/08 09:05 PM
08/22/08 09:05 PM
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Arnold, I'm also still waiting for an explanation of Romans 3:31.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Rosangela]
#101803
08/22/08 09:09 PM
08/22/08 09:09 PM
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Scott and Tom, What I said: Well, first the enmity is not synonymous with the carnal mind. The carnal mind is the cause of the enmity between human beings, and not the enmity itself. Ephesians mentions primarily the enmity between Jews and Gentiles. Of course behind the enmity between Jews and Gentiles there is the enmity between man and God – which is the carnal mind – but this is just implied in the text, not directly mentioned. Again, the enmity between human beings is not the carnal mind, but a manifestation of the carnal mind. When there is no genuine love for God, the result is that there is no love between human beings. Here I put in "something" for the part being debated. What would make sense here if this were just a blank to be filled in, just by looking at the argument What makes sense is what the author said, not what you think he should have said. And no matter how you slice it, the carnal mind is not a “law of commandments contained in ordinances.” You are trying to make a grammatical argument which doesn't seem to fit the context or make logical sense. If the Jews were perverting *both* laws, and this was causing enmity, how could abolishing *one* of them fix anything? You are trying to make a semantical argument which doesn’t fit the words Paul used. The Jews were perverting both laws, but the main instrument of enmity between them and the gentiles was the ceremonial law. Just read Acts 10, Galatians 2:11-14, and all the passages related to the Judaizers. Now, the ceremonial law was abolished on the cross obviously for other reasons, and not to fix this problem. However, Paul showed that even that which had been used in the past to foster the enmity between Jews and Gentiles had now been removed. A: Are the 10C an accurate expression of love?
S: No, I don't think so! I can easily not murder you, yet not love you. I could just be afraid of punishment. Is that keeping the law? No, it’s not keeping the law – and that’s the point. The law is an accurate expression of love, and nothing but love can fulfill it. The second commandment says, “but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” The law itself says that love to God is necessary to fulfill His commandments - and it's impossible to love God without loving others. The 10 Commandments clearly say that sin is the transgression of the law, but where in the 10 Commandments does it tell us that sin is anything not done in faith? How can someone love God and not have faith in Him? Besides, as Luther says, “Now this is the work of the First Commandment, which commands: ‘Thou shalt have no other gods,’ which means: ‘Since I alone am God, thou shalt place all thy confidence, trust and faith on Me alone, and on no one else.’ For that is not to have a god, if you call him God only with your lips, or worship him with the knees or bodily gestures; but if you trust Him with the heart, and look to Him for all good, grace and favor, whether in works or sufferings, in life or death, in joy or sorrow.” Even pagans have faith in their gods. If you do not put your faith in God, you put it in yourself, in other people, in money, in your carreer, in anything, and that thing will be your god. Therefore, if you do not have faith in God, you are already transgressing the first commandment. How about anything good that we could have done, but neglected to do? “Thou shalt not steal.” As Luther says, “For if your enemy needs you and you do not help him when you can, it is just the same as if you had stolen what belonged to him, for you owed it to him to help him. So says St. Ambrose, ‘Feed the hungry; if you do not feed him, you have, as far as you are concerned, slain him.’ And in this Commandment are included the works of mercy, which Christ will require at men's hands at the last day.”
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Rosangela]
#101806
08/23/08 12:25 AM
08/23/08 12:25 AM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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(Arnold)I can go for that. But since the law is the transcript of God's character, it can't be too incomplete.
What about the many statements that the law can only condemn, it cannot forgive? If it were a complete transcript of God's character, that would mean that God can only condemn and not forgive.
I didn't say it was complete. You said, "It can't be too incomplete" which is implying the same thing. Certainly Jesus manifested new light while He was here.
However, I still believe it is a transcript of God's character. And the Transcriber was pretty competent, IMO. How about if we say that the law is a transcription of God's character, fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go as far as the revelation of Jesus Christ goes? What do you think is the "law" Paul mentioned in Rom 3:31? If you see that as I do, I think you wouldn't consider the law so inadequate. The law is not inadequate at all. It does what it was designed to do. However, it cannot do what Christ did. The law is strong enough to condemn, but it is weak, even powerless, with respect to what man needs namely, salvation. It was and is "weak through the flesh." The law is good, and holy, and just, but man has no strength to perform it. Just as an axe may be of good steel, and very sharp, yet unable to cut down a tree because the arm that has hold of it has no strength, so the law of God could not perform itself. It set forth man's duty; it remained for him to do it. But he could not, and therefore Christ came to do it in him. What the law could not do, God did by his Son. (Waggoner on Romans) Regarding Romans 3:31, my understanding is that this is speaking of the moral law, and that when a person comes to Christ, the law is written in the heart, making the believer to be in harmony with the law. Iow, faith in Christ makes one to be obedient to the law.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Tom]
#101807
08/23/08 12:26 AM
08/23/08 12:26 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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I was told once that "text without the context is just a pretext." To which I replied, "Context without the text is just a con."
Did you make this up?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Tom]
#101808
08/23/08 12:29 AM
08/23/08 12:29 AM
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Arnold, I'm also still waiting for an explanation of Romans 3:31. Here's Waggoner's comment: That which has been said in regard to making void the law of God will apply here also. That is, no action of man can make the law anything different from what it actually is. It is the foundation of the throne of God, and as such it will ever abide, in spite of demons and men.
But it is left for us to say whether or not we will have it obliterated from our hearts, or have it established there. If we choose to have it established in our hearts, we have only to accept Christ by faith. Faith brings Christ to dwell in the heart. Eph. 3:17. The law of God is in the heart of Christ (Ps. 40:8), so that the faith which brings Christ into the heart establishes the law there. And since the law of God is the establishment of his throne, the faith which brings the law into the heart, enthrones God there. And thus it is that God works in men "both to will and to do of his good pleasure." I agree with Waggoner's points here. I think this is an excellent explanation of Rom. 3:31.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
[Re: Tom]
#101809
08/23/08 12:41 AM
08/23/08 12:41 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Ephesians mentions primarily the enmity between Jews and Gentiles. Of course behind the enmity between Jews and Gentiles there is the enmity between man and God – which is the carnal mind – but this is just implied in the text, not directly mentioned. Again, the enmity between human beings is not the carnal mind, but a manifestation of the carnal mind. This isn't what Paul says: Paul said:
dioti to fronhma thV sarkoV ecqra eiV qeon
Some translations
because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself(Young's literal translation)
Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.(KJV)
because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:(American Standard)
7Porquanto a inclinação da carne é inimizade contra Deus, pois não é sujeita ã lei de Deus, nem em verdade o pode ser; (João Ferreira de Almeida Atualizada)
7car l'affection de la chair est inimitié contre Dieu, parce qu'elle ne se soumet pas à la loi de Dieu, et qu'elle ne le peut même pas.(Louis Segond)
7 Por cuanto los designios de la carne son enemistad contra Dios; porque no se sujetan a la ley de Dios, ni tampoco pueden; (Reina-Valera 1960)
These all say the same thing. It is enmity against God. We've got the original Greek, English, Portuguese, French, Spanish, and I'm sure many other translations could be added, all agreeing that the carnal mind is enmity against God. Paul gives the reason: it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. EGW: He is directly opposed to God in his tastes, views, preferences, likes and dislikes, choice of things and pursuits; there is no relish for what God loves or approves, but a delight in those things which He despises; therefore a course is maintained which is offensive to Him. (MCP 22) Ellen White agrees. Rosangela, I don't see any grounds for your assertion. What evidence do you have for it?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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