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Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #102903
09/19/08 01:19 PM
09/19/08 01:19 PM
A
Aaron  Offline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
 Originally Posted By: Tom
IOW, the future is not the same as the past, even for God. They are fundamentally different in nature. What's the difference? The past consists of events which are fixed and unalterable, things which have already happened. The future consists of things yet to happen, which have not happened yet, which are not fixed. These are different for God as well as for us
[/quote]

This is where I disagree. You are limiting God when we have no way of knowing that the future for God is like it is for us. There is no way to know that God does not know how the details will play out. Or that the future IS the same for Him as it is for us. Considering He made time and space it doesnt seem He would be restricted by it yet at the same time clearly He does enter it for us in acts of providence. By allowing us our free will there is an intercomplexity of all of our free wills and His free will working together in such a way that His purposes will work out for good. Again the emotions are real even though He already knew how it would play out. Its similiar to knowing your parents will die of old age before they get to be 115 but still being sad when it happens. Why are you sad, you always knew they would die?

Also God could know for sure that Jesus would not fail and therefore make the promise in Gen yet the risk of failure would still be real because that knowledge in no way caused the success.

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Aaron] #102923
09/19/08 06:47 PM
09/19/08 06:47 PM
A
Aaron  Offline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
Tom are you familiar with William Craigs work trying to prove no incompatibility between holding to an A theory of time, indeterminism, a view of truth as correspondence, and the truth or falsity of future tense statements? I had a companion book once on process theology where he trys to show divine foreknowledge in no way entails fatalism nor need be inferential. I lent it to someone for his doctorate work on this subject. Who has influenced your open view? Rice, Boyd or even Hartsborne? Have you considered counter arguments like Craigs?

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #102984
09/21/08 03:33 AM
09/21/08 03:33 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Tom
 Quote:
A:But let's say that your premise is true. That means that when God promised, "He shall bruise your head," Adam couldn't be 100% sure that God was going to be able to pull it off. It seems that's what you believe. Am I right?

T:I believe Christ could have failed.

A:I understand that. What I want to see is if you are willing to put your premises together and take them to the logical conclusion.

When God promised, "He shall bruise your head," could Adam take that as a 100% certainty? Yes or no?

To Abraham God made a similar promise, the same actually, and swore by Himself that the promise would come true. So yes, Adam could take it as a certainty.

100% certainty? Probability of Jesus crushing Satan's head = 1?

 Originally Posted By: Tom
If Christ had failed, the repercussions would have been great indeed.

Very true. And Jesus, who is self-existent, would have been the first immortal sinner. Ugly.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #102986
09/21/08 03:58 AM
09/21/08 03:58 AM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding Adam, he had just sinned. It doesn't make sense that God would go into the theological repercussions of risk and an open future, does it? We know from the Spirit of Prophecy that Christ undertook a risk in His mission. There are also those who come to this conclusion sole from Scripture (e.g. "The God who Risks" by John Sanders), however I don't believe Adam knew about this. For him what was needed was that actions were being taken to deal with the situation.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #103011
09/22/08 01:58 PM
09/22/08 01:58 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
It seems you're saying that Adam could be certain of God's promise because he didn't know all the intricate details of the situation. However, I'm not asking about Adam's perception, but about reality. Let me rephrase for clarity:

When God promised, "He shall bruise your head," did God mean that as a 100% certainty? Yes or no?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #103014
09/22/08 03:21 PM
09/22/08 03:21 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If you're asking if Christ could have failed, the answer is "yes," He could have failed. If Christ could have failed, then God must have known that, right? So God knew that Christ might fail. So if "did God mean that as a 100% certainty" means "God meant it was 100% certain that Christ would succeed," that would have to be false, right?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #103046
09/22/08 07:30 PM
09/22/08 07:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, if A&E had successfully withstood Satan’s assault, Jesus would not have needed to die to redeem us. Without the death of Jesus, upon what grounds would God have destroyed the evil angels?

And, what about the unfallen beings? What would have made them more secure against evil than they were before Lucifer rebelled?

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #103047
09/22/08 07:37 PM
09/22/08 07:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
In the following passages Ellen makes it clear unfallen beings were solidly on God's side way before the death of Jesus on the cross. His death "confirmed" their loyalty and allegiance - it did not establish it. Also, they were ready for the evil angels to die way before Jesus died on the cross. His death "confirmed" their readiness - it did not establish it. His death did not remove doubt - it "confirmed" their faith.

 Quote:
The holy inhabitants of other worlds were watching with the deepest interest the events taking place on the earth. In the condition of the world that existed before the Flood they saw illustrated the results of the administration which Lucifer had endeavored to establish in heaven, in rejecting the authority of Christ and casting aside the law of God. . . It was an example of the awful depravity resulting from Satan's policy to remove from God's creatures the restraint of His holy law. {PP 78.4}

God carries with Him the sympathy and approval of the whole universe as step by step His great plan advances to its complete fulfillment. He will carry it with Him in the final eradication of rebellion. It will be seen that all who have forsaken the divine precepts have placed themselves on the side of Satan, in warfare against Christ. When the prince of this world shall be judged, and all who have united with him shall share his fate, the whole universe as witnesses to the sentence will declare, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints." Revelation 15:3. {PP 79.1}

The whole universe had been witness to the scenes at Sinai. In the working out of the two administrations was seen the contrast between the government of God and that of Satan. Again the sinless inhabitants of other worlds beheld the results of Satan's apostasy, and the kind of government he would have established in heaven had he been permitted to bear sway. {PP 335.3}

This work [the plan of salvation] of Christ was to confirm the beings of other worlds in their innocency and loyalty, as well as to save the lost and perishing of this world. He opened a way for the disobedient to return to their allegiance to God, while by the same act He placed a safeguard around those who were already pure, that they might not become polluted. {MYP 253.3}

While we rejoice that there are worlds which have never fallen, these worlds render praise and honor and glory to Jesus Christ for the plan of redemption to save the fallen sons of Adam, as well as to confirm themselves in their position and character of purity. . . Christ is mediating in behalf of man, and the order of unseen worlds also is preserved by His mediatorial work. {MYP 254.1}

To the very close of the controversy in heaven the great usurper continued to justify himself. When it was announced that with all his sympathizers he must be expelled from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law. He reiterated his claim that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. He denounced the divine statutes as a restriction of their liberty and declared that it was his purpose to secure the abolition of law; that, freed from this restraint, the hosts of heaven might enter upon a more exalted, more glorious state of existence. {GC 499.2}

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #103048
09/22/08 07:41 PM
09/22/08 07:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
 Originally Posted By: tom
MM: Also, did the holy angels learn anything about God they didn't know before they choose to side with God when the other angels rebelled?

TE: Yes. The chapter "It Is Finished" discusses this, to name one spot.

MM: What in particular do you have in mind?

TE: Much of the chapter deals with what the angels learned. Over half of it.

Okay. But what part of it explains what the holy angels learned about God that they didn't know before they choose to side with God when the other angels rebelled?

 Originally Posted By: tom
MM: You seem to think God cannot know the future with certainty.

TE: I disagree with this statement. At least, it's not accurate, in terms of what I believe. Here's what I believe.

1.The future is not fixed but open.
2.God knows and perceived the future as not fixed by open.

Does this mean God knows in advance with certainty which of all the options will play out in the future? Or, does it mean God cannot know in advance with certainty which of all the options will play out in the future?

 Originally Posted By: tom
IOW, the future is not the same as the past, even for God. They are fundamentally different in nature. What's the difference? The past consists of events which are fixed and unalterable, things which have already happened. The future consists of things yet to happen, which have not happened yet, which are not fixed. These are different for God as well as for us.

I appreciate you explaining what you believe. I wasn’t aware you believe this way until just now.

 Originally Posted By: tom
What's the difference between God and us regarding the future? The difference is that God sees the future perfectly, including all of it's possibilities. Everything that can happen God sees.

What good does it do God to know all the possible ways the future can play out? In what way in this knowledge useful to God, or to anyone else?

 Originally Posted By: tom
That God is not limited by time must be true since God created it. However, that does not imply that God does not experience time, or that God does not exist in time. All of Scripture denies the idea you are expressing. There are thousands upon thousands of expressions where God communicates to us as a Being who experiences things in time, as we do.

You say God is not limited by time, but what do you mean? What you wrote above about God and time makes it sound like He is no different than us, that He is limited in the same way we are. That we die the first death is irrelevant.

Also, the view I have been sharing does not limit God’s ability to relate to us within our time and space constraints. Why would it? And, why wouldn’t He?

Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Mountain Man] #103049
09/22/08 07:42 PM
09/22/08 07:42 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Tom, if A&E had successfully withstood Satan’s assault, Jesus would not have needed to die to redeem us. Without the death of Jesus, upon what grounds would God have destroyed the evil angels?

And, what about the unfallen beings? What would have made them more secure against evil than they were before Lucifer rebelled?

I'd never thought of that. Good point.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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