This speaks of both a penalty being paid and of God pardoning an injury done to Himself. Do you agree with this?

The point is that a righteous person is someone who is obedient to the law.

R: Remember that God requires from us a perfect obedience like that of Adam before his fall - this means no sin at all.
T: This is why He gives us the righteousness of Christ.

Also, this requirement is not something arbitrary. It's a "requirement" as a recognition of fact. In order to be at peace with God, at harmony with Him, we must be righteous, because He is righteous.

R: No, what I’m claiming sounds like Luther’s theology (simul iustus et peccator)...Ford’s theology is the theology of the evangelicals. He excludes heart renewal from justification and places it in sanctification. Justification for him – and for them - is only a legal pronouncement.
T: Isn't this exactly what you are doing with COL 312?

R: I think COL 312 refers to sanctification, not to justification.
T: You think being covered by the robes of Christ's righteousness is not justification?

Regarding SC 62, I think you're misunderstanding her. The "more than this" is not separate from the declaration of righteousness; it is the declaration of righteousness which changes the heart!

1 Timothy 1:15 Faithful is the word, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom *I* am the first.
Anyone who has seen the cross and understood it will feel like Paul.

By the wedding garment in the parable is represented the pure, spotless character which Christ's true followers will possess. (COL 310)

It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.

This covering, the robe of His own righteousness, Christ will put upon every repenting, believing soul.

Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning.(DA 311)

T:This speaks of both a penalty being paid and of God pardoning an injury done to Himself. Do you agree with this?

R:I think so.

Let the reader try to picture the scene. Here stands the law as the swift witness against the sinner. It cannot change, and it will not call a sinner a righteous man. The convicted sinner tries again and again to obtain righteousness from the law, but it resists all his advances. It cannot be bribed by any amount of penance or professedly good deeds. But here stands Christ, "full of grace" as well as of truth, calling the sinner to Him. At last the sinner, weary of the vain struggle to get righteousness from the law, listens to the voice of Christ and flees to His outstretched arms. Hiding in Christ, he is covered with His righteousness, and now behold! he has obtained, through faith in Christ, that for which he has been vainly striving. He has the righteousness which the law requires, and it is the genuine article, because he obtained it from the Source of Righteousness, from the very place whence the law came. And the law witnesses to the genuineness of this righteousness. It says that so long as the man retains that, it will go into court and defend him against all accusers. It will witness to the fact that he is a righteous man. With the righteousness which is "through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil. 3:9), Paul was sure that he would stand secure in the day of Christ.

For someone to be considered righteous, this person must be perfectly obedient to the law from the moment of birth to the moment of death.

For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith. (Romans 4:3;NLT)

Who, then, can be saved? Can there, then, be such a thing as a righteous person? Yes, for the Bible often speaks of them. It speaks of Lot as "that righteous man." It says, "Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him, for they shall eat the fruit of their doings" (Isa. 3:10)(Christ And His Rightoueness)

Enoch and Noah were found righteous when tested by the law of God. Had the antediluvians kept the way of God, had they obeyed his commandments, they too would have been found righteous, and would have received the Lord's commendation.(ST 2/11/97)

“Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. They are justified alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Father accepts the Son, and through the atoning sacrifice of His Son accepts the sinner.” {OHC 52.3}

Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law(Isa. 51:7)

R: Remember that God requires from us a perfect obedience like that of Adam before his fall - this means no sin at all.
T: This is why He gives us the righteousness of Christ.

R:Yes, and that’s why, again, in ourselves we are sinners, but in Christ we are righteous.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:(1 Cor. 1:30)

Also, this requirement is not something arbitrary. It's a "requirement" as a recognition of fact. In order to be at peace with God, at harmony with Him, we must be righteous, because He is righteous.

No, it cannot be a recognition of fact. If the law (or God) looked simply at the reality of our lives, even after rebirth, it would never recognize us as righteous.

Let the reader try to picture the scene. Here stands the law as the swift witness against the sinner. It cannot change, and it will not call a sinner a righteous man. The convicted sinner tries again and again to obtain righteousness from the law, but it resists all his advances. It cannot be bribed by any amount of penance or professedly good deeds. But here stands Christ, "full of grace" as well as of truth, calling the sinner to Him. At last the sinner, weary of the vain struggle to get righteousness from the law, listens to the voice of Christ and flees to His outstretched arms. Hiding in Christ, he is covered with His righteousness, and now behold! he has obtained, through faith in Christ, that for which he has been vainly striving. He has the righteousness which the law requires, and it is the genuine article, because he obtained it from the Source of Righteousness, from the very place whence the law came. And the law witnesses to the genuineness of this righteousness. It says that so long as the man retains that, it will go into court and defend him against all accusers. (Christ and His Righteousness)

And she says, too: “When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life.” Living His life is a process – it’s sanctification, not justification (justification is pardon, remember?).

The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 176)

R: I think COL 312 refers to sanctification, not to justification.

T: You think being covered by the robes of Christ's righteousness is not justification?

R:It can refer to both imputed and imparted righteousness, and in fact both are inseparable, but here it refers specifically to imparted righteousness.

Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away. And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been cancelled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17. And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart.

The new heart is a heart that loves righteousness and hates sin. (Christ And His Righteousness)

We aim too low. The mark is much higher. Our minds need expansion, that we may comprehend the significance of the provision of God. We are to reflect the highest attributes of the character of God. . . . The law of God is the exalted standard to which we are to attain through the imputed righteousness of Christ. (OHC 364; ellipses original)

Righteousness of Christ imputed to men means holiness, uprightness, purity. Unless Christ's righteousness was imputed to us we could not have acceptable repentance. The righteousness dwelling in us by faith consists of love, forbearance, meekness, and all the Christian virtues. Here the righteousness of Christ is laid hold of and becomes a part of our being. All who have this righteousness will work the works of God. (Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce (1989), page 134

He came to reveal to the heavenly universe, to the worlds unfallen, and to sinful people, that every provision had been made by God in behalf of humanity, and that through the imputed righteousness of Christ all who receive Him by faith can show their loyalty by keeping the law.(Manuscript 63, 1897.)

When we take Him as our personal Saviour, this gives us boldness to approach the throne of grace. By beholding we become changed, morally assimilated to the One who is perfect in character. By receiving His imputed righteousness, through the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, we become like Him. The image of Christ is cherished, and it captivates the whole being.(God's Amazing Grace page 96)

With principles unsettled, unconsecrated as they are, the waves of temptation sweep them away from what they know to be right, and they do not make holy endeavor to overcome every wrong, and through the imputed righteousness of Christ, perfect a righteous character. (MYP 28)

By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. Those who accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God.(FILB 113)

All those who are justified by faith fall in the category of those of whom COL 312 is referring.

All those who are justified by faith ... are righteous. Do you disagree? If so, can you enumerate an exception? (i.e., someone who was living Christ's life etc., who was not righteous)

When I asked if you "agree with this," I was referring to Waggoner's statement, not whether the statement speaks of both a penalty being paid and of God pardoning an injury done to Himself. From your response, it's not clear what you are agreeing to. I could have been more precise in my question, so I'll be so this time around. Do you agree with Waggoner's following statement?

R: For someone to be considered righteous, this person must be perfectly obedient to the law from the moment of birth to the moment of death.
T: This isn't true. For someone to be considered righteous, the person must have faith.

<<“Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. They are justified alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Father accepts the Son, and through the atoning sacrifice of His Son accepts the sinner.” {OHC 52.3}>>

This is referring to a time when they knew not Christ and didn't have faith. After having faith, they receive Christ, and are made righteous by faith. This is simply another way of saying that the law is written in the heart.

I’m not understanding your argument. Obviously only those who are justified can be sanctified, but COL is referring to sanctification - investigative judgment – the character developed – living Christ’s life.

By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.(FILB 113)

The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.(DA 176)

Those who accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God.

Those who accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.(1 John 3:7)

The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders Waggoner and Jones. This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. (TM 91)

But you are mixing imputed and imparted righteousness.

R: For someone to be considered righteous, this person must be perfectly obedient to the law from the moment of birth to the moment of death.
T: This isn't true. For someone to be considered righteous, the person must have faith.

No, for someone to be considered righteous, this person must be perfectly obedient to the law from the moment of birth to the moment of death.[quote]

No, for someone to be consider righteous, they must have faith, as I demonstrated by quoting Paul:

[quote]For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith".

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

We are declared righteous according to this requirement not because we are so in fact but, indeed, through faith.

The Bible does refer to many people as righteous, but on this basis.

R: For someone to be considered righteous, this person must be perfectly obedient to the law from the moment of birth to the moment of death.
T: This isn't true. For someone to be considered righteous, the person must have faith.

No, for someone to be considered righteous, this person must be perfectly obedient to the law from the moment of birth to the moment of death.

We are declared righteous ... indeed, through faith.... The Bible does refer to many people as righteous, but on this basis.

Just look at the text: “Sinners can be justified by God only when
1) He pardons their sins
2) Remits the punishment they deserve, and
3) Treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned

If what you said is true for the 3d statement, it must also be true for the 1st and the 2nd ones. So what you are saying is that He pardons their sins and remits their punishment before they know Christ and have faith in Him.

...

As far as Lucifer's being restored to harmony with God, this looks like all that was necessary.

...

This is just dealing with the aspect of man's being brought into harmony with God. There's still the aspect of Lucifer's accusations to be considered.

...

So, to answer your question, there is something else that needs to be taken care of.

The text says that regardless of one's performance in the present or the future, there is still a debt to be paid for past sins, a debt that only Christ can pay.

How does the Christus Victor teach the fact that the debt of past sins must be paid, and that the sinner is unable to pay for it himself?

We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed. Any theories we build up as to how Christ's death did all this are, in my view, quite secondary: mere plans or diagrams to be left alone if they do not help us, and, even if they do help us, not to be confused with the thing itself. All the same, some of these theories are worth looking at.

The one most people have heard is the one about our being let off because Christ volunteered to bear a punishment instead of us. Now on the face of it that is a very silly theory. If God was prepared to let us off, why on earth did He not do so? And what possible point could there be in punishing an innocent person instead? None at all that I can see, if you are thinking of punishment in the police-court sense. On the other hand, if you think of a debt, there is plenty of point in a person who has some assets paying it on behalf of someone who has not. Or if you take "paying the penalty," not in the sense of being punished, but in the more general sense of "footing the bill," then, of course, it is a matter of common experience that, when one person has got himself into a hole, the trouble of getting him out usually falls on a kind friend.

Now what was the sort of "hole" man had gotten himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. Laying down your arms, surrendering, saying you are sorry, realising that you have been on the wrong track and getting ready to start life over again from the ground floor - that is the only way out of a "hole." This process of surrender - this movement full speed astern - is what Christians call repentance. Now repentance is no fun at all. It is something much harder than merely eating humble pie. It means unlearning all the self-conceit and self-will that we have been training ourselves into for thousands of years. It means undergoing a kind of death. In fact, it needs a good man to repent. And here's the catch. Only a bad person needs to repent: only a good person can repent perfectly. The worse you are the more you need it and the less you can do it. The only person who could do it perfectly would be a perfect person - and he would not need it.

Remember, this repentance, this willing submission to humiliation and a kind of death, is not something God demands of you before He will take you back and which He could let you off of if He chose: it is simply a description of what going back to Him is like. If you ask God to take you back without it, you are really asking Him to let you go back without going back. It cannot happen. Very well, then, we must go through with it. But the same badness which makes us need it, makes us unable to do it. Can we do it if God helps us? Yes, but what do we mean when we talk of God helping us? We mean God putting into us a bit of Himself, so to speak. He lends us a little of His reasoning powers and that is how we think: He puts a little of His love into us and that is how we love one another. When you teach a child writing, you hold its hand while it forms the letters: that is, it forms the letters because you are forming them. We love and reason because God loves and reasons and holds our hand while we do it. Now if we had not fallen, that would all be plain sailing. But unfortunately we now need God's help in order to do something which God, in His own nature, never does at all - to surrender, to suffer, to submit, to die. Nothing in God's nature corresponds to this process at all. So that the one road for which we now need God's leadership most of all is a road God, in His own nature, has never walked. God can share only what He has: this thing, in His own nature, He has not.

But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us. He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God. You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man. Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man. That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all. (Mere Christianity)