This is obvious. Conversion involved the writing of the law on the heart and on the mind.



It changes everything about a person, because as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. When one's way of thinking changes, everything about one changes. This doesn't imply instant perfection, however, or that one will suddenly have no bad habits to be overcome.



Too many negatives here. I do not hear Ellen saying this does not mean people are converted without their former sinful habits. If "sinful habit" is as you have defined it, doing something which one knows to be wrong, then I agree. I've been commenting on the unknown habits people have.



As to my position, this is a straw man.



No, not what you said, given your definitions.

However, I don't think she even looks at the question the way you've framed it. Here's something she wrote which I think is germane:



Perfection has not so much to do with negatives, like uncrucified habits, as with positives, like becoming "like unto Him." As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.

TE: It changes everything about a person because as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. When one's way of thinking changes, everything about one changes.

MM: What does the word "everything" exclude?

TE: This doesn't imply instant perfection, however, or that one will suddenly have no bad habits to be overcome.

MM: Suddenly? Here's what Ellen wrote about it: "Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

Apparently there is nothing "sudden" about the "long, patient, protracted process" of conversion that ends in rebirth. Thus, there are two questions:

1. Which unChristlike habits and traits are revealed, confessed, and crucified during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth?

2. Which unChristlike habits and traits are overlooked during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth?

It would seem, Tom, that you and I both agree none of the habits and traits known to be unChristlike by the baptismal candidate are overlooked during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth. These must be crucified before rebirth and baptism can occur. The temptations associated with these former habits and traits may or may not lessen or cease altogether, but this does not mean they are guilty. Being tempted is not a sin or a sign that they weren't truly born again.

However, we seem to disagree as to which unChristlike habits and traits are overlooked during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth, which ones are placed on the back burner, as it were, to be dealt with later on after they are reborn and baptized.

Perhaps it would be helpful to focus on baptismal candidates who are properly indoctrinated by an SDA in accordance with the counsel contained in the SOP. Hopefully we agree it is important to live in harmony with the precepts and principles of truth as outlined in the 28 fundamental beliefs. If so, at what point should they learn them - 1) during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth, or 2) sometime afterward? Also, which unChristlike habits and traits should be overlooked to be dealt with later on?

You're confusing the wooing of the Holy Spirit with the conversion of the individual. The wooing is what is the "long, patient, protracted process," not the conversion. The conversion is the *result* of the patient, protracted process, not the process itself.



Maybe none. This isn't the issue. What is the wooing process doing? "Impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ." The wooing is to draw the soul to Christ.



Again, not the issue. God is not trying to deal with habits and traits, but to draw the soul to Christ.



I don't agree with this. This would depend upon the candidate and the one doing the preparation, wouldn't it? Also this would be only be dealing with certain habits. How many possible habits could a person possibly have? A million? At least thousands, don't you think? How many of these would a preparation for baptism cover? A dozen or two?



Yes, this looks like a fair statement, as you seem to think none are overlooked, and I think that many could be overlooked.



This is assuming some should be overlooked. Are you talking about the Holy Spirit here, or someone preparing someone else for baptism?

Let's focus on people who are properly indoctrinated in accordance with the baptismal counsel described in the SOP. At what point should they be taught how to think and live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs - 1) during the long, patient, protracted process that ends in rebirth, or 2) sometime afterward?

The long, patient, protracted process is the wooing of the Holy Spirit. The fact that a person is interested in studying to be baptized of itself indicates it's likely this long wooing process of the Holy Spirit has already taken place.

If a person is not born again, that means nothing more or less than that they do no know Jesus Christ. Nothing matters if a person doesn't know Christ. So if a person is not born again, by all means said person should be introduced to Christ!

Did you answer my question? If so, please explain it to me. Thank you.

Your question had a false assumption. It's difficult to respond to questions of this sort.

If a person is not born again, then they don't know Christ. If that's the case, baptizing them will do little good, and could do harm. So the thing to do would be to introduce them to Christ ASAP.

In Christ alone is life. Not in religiousity or baptism certificates.

Okay, here's the question again reworded:

Let's focus on people who are properly indoctrinated in accordance with the baptismal counsel described in the SOP. At what point should they be taught how to think and live in harmony with the 28 fundamental beliefs - 1) before they are baptized, or 2) sometime afterward?

How could one suggest that a person shouldn't be taught about the 28 fundamental beliefs until after being baptized? How does that make sense? What would be the argument for doing this?

The point of the question is to determine which cultivated sinful traits and habits you think might be overlooked to be dealt with sometime after baptism.