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Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #104562
11/12/08 11:52 PM
11/12/08 11:52 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Might it be possible that they are resurrected to do the final "accounting" for sin, in which God is ultimately declared just, holy, and good--having been on trial for ~7000 years?

And might it be possible that God unveils Himself before all, causing death to the sinners, for no mortal can look upon God and live?

It seems that if we are not "dying to see God" now, we will be then.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Green Cochoa] #104576
11/13/08 12:55 PM
11/13/08 12:55 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Might it be possible that they are resurrected to do the final "accounting" for sin, in which God is ultimately declared just, holy, and good--having been on trial for ~7000 years?


I think this is definitely involved. Scripture speaks of how "every knee will bow." The SOP speaks of how every intelligent being will acknowledge that God has been right and fair in His treatment of all. ("right and fair" are my words, I don't remember hers exactly; "just, holy and good" is of course how Paul speaks of the law, and this would apply very well to God's character as well.)

Quote:
And might it be possible that God unveils Himself before all, causing death to the sinners, for no mortal can look upon God and live?


I think this is correct too. The "Desire of Ages" says:

Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)


The glory of God is His character, so this seems like the same idea you are suggesting.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: kland] #104624
11/14/08 05:51 PM
11/14/08 05:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: kland
MM: However, if sin doesn't punish sinners, then the first death does not serve to satisfy law and justice. In this case God must resurrect them to execute justice and judgment in consequence of their sins.

K: If I reject God, he's going to resurrect me to punish me?
What will I learn?

MM: Please consider the following passages:

K: Ok, I have. And "everlasting punishment" sounds terrible! What will I learn? How will it correct me? . . . I'm a little perplexed by Mountain Man's implication of eternal punishment as eternal torment.

Here's what I posted initially - "In this case God must resurrect them to execute justice and judgment in consequence of their sins." The passages I posted make it clear that God will "punish" (not torture) the wicked with "everlasting punishment". The reason God must resurrect them is due to the fact the first death does not satisfy the demands of law and justice, namely, punishment "according to their works".

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #104633
11/14/08 11:25 PM
11/14/08 11:25 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
This says "torture":

Quote:
What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy! As if God's hatred of sin is the reason why it is perpetuated. For, according to the teachings of these theologians, continued torture without hope of mercy maddens its wretched victims, and as they pour out their rage in curses and blasphemy, they are forever augmenting their load of guilt. God's glory is not enhanced by thus perpetuating continually increasing sin through ceaseless ages. (GC 536)


You've said you agree with this, except for the "unceasing" part.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #104659
11/15/08 03:41 PM
11/15/08 03:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Tom, where did I say I agree with this quote except for the unceasing part? Because the truth is - I do not believe God finds pleasure in punishing people.

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #104668
11/16/08 03:14 AM
11/16/08 03:14 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I asked you if you saw anything wrong with this description other than the duration, and you only mentioned the time as being in error. I'll quote the text more in full to give more context:

Quote:
How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11. (GC 535)


Then follows the paragraph mentioned previously.

This looked to me like a description of the view you've been presenting, except for the time of the punishment being unceasing as opposed to finite. It even has your idea of " Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!" included.

I have no desire to misrepresent you, so I'll ask again to please point out any differences you have with what is presented here and what you believe will happen.

In particular, burning someone alive is unspeakably cruel. It's unbelievable to me that someone could think things out carefully, and come to the conclusion that God has a character which would allow Him to burn people alive, causing them to suffer for many hours or many days, in order to make them pay for sins they've committed. If God would do such a thing, and we are supposed to be like Him in character, should we be capable of doing like things?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #104697
11/16/08 10:13 PM
11/16/08 10:13 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, why are you asking me to explain what Ellen wrote? She explained it herself later on in the same book. God has on several occasions employed fire to punish impenitent sinners. There is nothing cruel about it. God is love. The wrath of God is love. Listen:

Quote:
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 21:1. The fire that consumes the wicked purifies the earth. Every trace of the curse is swept away. No eternally burning hell will keep before the ransomed the fearful consequences of sin. {GC 674.1}

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #104702
11/16/08 10:57 PM
11/16/08 10:57 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I wasn't asking her to explain what she wrote, I don't think. I was pointing out that your view is the same as what she presented in GC 536, except for the punishment (or torture) not being ceaseless.

Burning people alive is torture. Calling is "punishment," makes it no less torture. A rose by any other name smells as sweet, and burning people alive, by whatever name, is cruelty.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #104725
11/17/08 01:40 PM
11/17/08 01:40 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,429
Midland
Quote:
MM: The passages I posted make it clear that God will "punish" (not torture) the wicked with "everlasting punishment".

In keeping with the implied, "we all know what punishment means", do we all know what "Vengeance" means? Applying vengeance eternally and everlastingly can only mean torture. We all "know" it.

Quote:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Everlasting punishment is contrasted with life eternal. Does eternal life cease, or does everlasting punishment continue? If it continues, would that not be "torture"? Other religions use that argument.

And your statement of
Quote:
The wrath of God is love.

strikes me like political speech. Unless you are explaining what "wrath" means. Which then would contradict some of your other statements.

But, perhaps, could it be that punishment and vengeance and eternal could mean something different here? I believe you intend "everlasting" to mean the results of it and not the action continuing. I'm not sure you could modify the meaning of one without modifying the meaning of the other.

If I need to be more specific, I asked, what will I learn, how will it correct me when God raises me for the purpose of "punishing" me. That sounds like some vindictive and vengeful God seeking to torture me. Your explanation of
Quote:

The reason God must resurrect them is due to the fact the first death does not satisfy the demands of law and justice, namely, punishment "according to their works".

doesn't seem to answer the question dealing with what my idea for purpose of "punishment" is. Perhaps you could share what punishment means to you if not to teach, correct, and lead.

Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #104726
11/17/08 03:08 PM
11/17/08 03:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
I wasn't asking her to explain what she wrote, I don't think. I was pointing out that your view is the same as what she presented in GC 536, except for the punishment (or torture) not being ceaseless.

Burning people alive is torture. Calling is "punishment," makes it no less torture. A rose by any other name smells as sweet, and burning people alive, by whatever name, is cruelty.

So you say. What about drowning people alive? Is that cruelty? God drowned millions of people in the Flood. You seem to think God cannot punish and destroy sinners because it is inconsistent with His character. But listen:

In Noah's day philosophers declared that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water; so now there are men of science who endeavor to show that the world cannot be destroyed by fire--that this would be inconsistent with the laws of nature. But the God of nature, the Maker and Controller of her laws, can use the works of His hands to serve His own purpose. {PP 103.2}

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Ps. 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. . . . {LDE 240.5}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {LDE 241.1}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3}

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