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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104911
11/19/08 11:32 PM
11/19/08 11:32 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Christ took our sinful nature, which includes whatever tendencies are common to human nature after Adam fell. To use EGW's language, He took "our sinful nature upon His own sinless nature."

Also:

Quote:
There were in him (Adam) no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh."(BE 9/3/00)


Christ never sinned, but He took our sin upon Him. He "became sin for us" as Paul put it.

So Christ book took our nature and our sin. We have all sinned in our sinful nature, so we have the combination of our nature (the nature of Adam after the fall, or the nature of Adam the transgressor, as EGW puts it) and our sin. Christ also had both of these things, but not in the same way, since He never sinned. He took our sinful nature, and took our sin. Neither was natural to Himself, but He took both.

If you have in mind by "propensity" something which involves the commission of sin, as opposed to something we have by heredity, then Christ took that by becoming sin for us. If you have in mind by "propensity," tendencies which are common to our human nature, then He took that by taking our sinful nature.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104915
11/20/08 12:04 AM
11/20/08 12:04 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
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California, USA
From what you say, it seems Jesus had at least everything we have. So in what sense was it that Jesus did not possess "the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man"?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104917
11/20/08 12:36 AM
11/20/08 12:36 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Jesus never sinned; in that sense Jesus did not posses "the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104919
11/20/08 04:55 AM
11/20/08 04:55 AM
A
Aaron  Offline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 82
TN
Tim Poirier of the White Estate has looked at Mrs. Whites statements and use of Ellen's marked copy of Melvill's book "Sermons by Henry Melvill" Tim concludes that Ellen agrees with Melvill that the fall had two basic consequences, innocent infirmities and sinful propensities. Infirmities would be things like hunger, pain, weakness, sorrow and death while propensities would be a tendency toward sinning. Before the fall Adam had neither, after he(and us) had both and Christ took on our infirmities BUT not our propensities. When Mrs White speaks on the subject and talks about our same condition she is referring to infirmities but never propensities. Otherwise she would not have made statements like

"When Adam was assailed by the tempter in Eden he was without the taint of sin....Christ in the wilderness of temptation stood in Adam's place to bear the test he failed to endure." R&H july 28, 1874

"He was a mighty petitioner, not possessing the passions of our human, fallen natures, but compassed with the infirmities, tempted in all points even as we are." R&H may 19, 1885

"He had not taken on Him even the nature of angels, but humanity, perfecly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin"

"The divine nature, combined with the human, made Him capable of yielding to Satans temptations. Here the test of Christ was far greater than that of Adam and Eve, for Christ took our nature, fallen, but not corrupted" MS 57, 1890

"Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering" SM, book 3 p131

"For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strenth, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity"
Desire of Ages p117

Aaron

Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Aaron] #104922
11/20/08 07:54 AM
11/20/08 07:54 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man's nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. (DA 49; emphasis mine)


What were the results shown in the history of His earthly ancestors? Hunger? Tiredness? Thirst?

No, these are not the results shown in the history of His earthly ancestors, but murder, adultery, prostitution, etc. Christ *accepted" the results of the great law of heredity. He "accepted" them; not was exempt from them.

Quote:
The idea that Christ was born of an immaculate or
sinless mother, inherited no tendencies to sin, and for this
reason did not sin, removes Him from the realm of a fallen
world, and from the very place where help is needed. On
His human side, Christ inherited just what every child of
Adam inherits, – a sinful nature. On the divine side, from
His very conception He was begotten and born of the
Spirit. And all this was done to place mankind on
vantage-ground, and to demonstrate that in the very same
way every one who is ‘born of the Spirit’ may gain like
victories over sin in his own sinful flesh (Bible Readings
for the Home Circle, p. 174, 1935 ed.; also p. 115, 1915; emphasis orig)


This was the position of the SDA church, and no other was suggested, until the second half of last century.

It's easy to interpret EGW this way or that, by emphasizing certain portions of her writings, regardless of the position one takes. This is a natural thing to do, regardless of the position being discussed (for example, we see the same thing in other discussions, such as the divinity of Christ, or questions of the judgment, to name two that have been discussed at length on these forums), but the historical situation should be considered.

Ellen White's contemporaries understood her beliefs on the nature of Christ to be that which is quoted above in "Bible Readings for the Home." For example, S. N. Haskell read aloud the following from "The Desire of Ages,"

Quote:
Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking his nature might overcome. Made ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh,’ he lived a sinless life. Now by his divinity he lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by his humanity he reaches us.(DA 311, 312)


and then commented

Quote:
This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness.(RH 10/02/00)


This was during the Holy Flesh movement, of which one of the pillars was that Christ took the nature of Adam before the fall:

Quote:
Their point of theology in this particular respect seems to be this: They believe that Christ took Adam’s nature before He fell; so He took humanity as it was in the garden of Eden; and thus humanity was holy, and this was the humanity which Christ had; and now, they say, the particular time has come for us to become holy in that same sense, and then we will have "translation faith"; and never die" (RH 9/25/00)


Seventh-day Adventists, including Ellen White, to meet this false teaching, combated it by pointing out that Christ took not the nature of Adam before the fall, but the nature of Adam after the fall.

Quote:


After speaking here the last time that I was here, there were two questions handed me, and I might read them now. One of them is this: "Was that Holy Thing which was born of the Virgin Mary born in sinful flesh, and did that flesh have the same evil tendencies to contend with that ours does?". . . .

Before we go on with this text, let me show you what there is in the idea that is in this question. You have it in mind. Was Christ, that holy thing which was born of the virgin Mary, born in sinful flesh? Did you ever hear of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception? And do you know what it is?. . . . The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, was born sinless. Why?—Ostensibly to magnify Jesus; really the work of the devil to put a wide gulf between Jesus the Saviour of men, and the men whom He came to save, so that one could not pass over to the other. That is all.

We need to settle, every one of us, whether we are out of the church of Rome or not. There are a great many that have got the marks yet. . .

Do you not see that the idea that the flesh of Jesus was not like ours (because we know ours is sinful) necessarily involves the idea of the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary? Mind you, in him was no sin, but the mystery of God manifest in the flesh, . . . is the perfect manifestation of the life of God in its spotless purity in the midst of sinful flesh. . . .

Please let everybody who have held a mistaken idea have that idea obliterated from your mind, just for your own sakes, that you may be saved from error, and not simply from theoretical error, but from sin. Think of this for yourselves, that the idea of sinless flesh mankind is the deification of the devil, because sinlessness belongs only to God, but sin is of the devil. . . . Sinlessness is an attribute of Deity. Sinless flesh, therefore, would mean that the spirit that worketh in the children of disobedience, in the lusts of the flesh, is God. But it is not.(Waggoner: 1901 GCB)


Ellen White was at this meeting, and heard Waggoner speak.

It is inconceivable that Ellen White could have secretly held one of these pillars of the Holy Flesh movement, and remained silent while her colleagues argued against it, quoting her works with her knowledge as they did so. Indeed, during this time she wrote:

Quote:
Christ did in reality unite the offending nature of man with his own sinless nature, because by this act of condescension he would be enabled to pour out his blessings in behalf of the fallen race.(RH 6/17/00)


Quote:
Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset.(YI 12/20/00)


Quote:
-In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.(MS 141, 1901)


Quote:
There were in him (Adam) no corrupt principles, no tendencies to evil. But when Christ came to meet the temptations of Satan, He bore "the likeness of sinful flesh."(YI 9/3/00)


(Note the contrast here of Christ to Adam, who had "no corrupt principles" whereas Christ "bore the likeness of sinful flesh.")

So we see Ellen White writing her strongest statements in regards to Christ's human nature at the very time her colleagues were working with her to counteract the Holy Flesh doctrine.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104957
11/21/08 07:32 PM
11/21/08 07:32 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Jesus never sinned; in that sense Jesus did not posses "the same sinful, corrupt propensities as man."

You seem to be equating "propensities" with actual sin. Did I understand you right?

BTW, Kevin Paulson has an article that equates propensities with actual sin, though not in every case.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104979
11/21/08 10:56 PM
11/21/08 10:56 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
"Propensities" depends on the context. It could imply actual participation in sin, but it might just refer to a tendency passed genetically, depending on the context.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #104985
11/21/08 11:38 PM
11/21/08 11:38 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Do you have any use of "propensity" as actual sin in writings contemporary to EGW? The 1828 Webster's defines it as an inclination, not an action.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: asygo] #104990
11/22/08 12:07 AM
11/22/08 12:07 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
It's not that the word itself means participation in sin, but that it can imply participation in sin. "Corrupt" is another work which can have this connotation.

When EGW speaks of Christ, she says not to present Him as one with the propensities of sin. This seems to have to do with actually participating in sin, as opposed to simply having our fallen human nature.

EGW speaks of Christ taking the "offending" nature of man, of taking a nature "degraded and defiled" by sin. Here she seems not to be dealing with participation in sin.

She speaks of Adam's not having "corrupt principles," whereas Christ took the "likeness of sinful flesh."

So she uses some very strong statements, which she applies to Christ, but since we know that Christ never sinned, we know these phrases cannot imply participation in sin. Otoh, other phrases should not be applied to Christ, the implication being that these statement do imply participation in sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits? [Re: Tom] #105015
11/22/08 08:41 PM
11/22/08 08:41 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Still speaking about temptations from within:

"The corruption of the world is seeking to steal our senses; all the unholy influences on every side are working to hold us to a low, earthly level--blinding our sensibilities, degrading our desires, enfeebling our conscience, and crippling our religious faculties by urging us to give sway to the lower nature. Corruptions around us find corruptions within. Each works upon the other." {19MR 346.1}

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