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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105651
12/06/08 08:09 AM
12/06/08 08:09 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
BTW, do you agree that the "mind and character" that you say need transformation was clearly referred to by EGW as "nature"? Therefore, if someone chooses to think of "nature" in this way, they are solidly standing on SOP ground.


"Nature" can mean many different things, depending on the context.

Here is a partial listing of what the word "nature" may mean:

Quote:
cosmos, creation, macrocosm, universe, world, breed, cast, description, feather, ilk, kind, lot, manner, mold, order, sort, species, stamp, stripe, type, variety, persuasion, character, complexion, disposition, makeup, personality, being, essence, essentiality, quintessence, substance, texture, complexion, disposition, humor, temper, temperament


That Ellen White used the word "nature" with one of these meanings in mind does not mean one is on solid ground to understand "nature" as meaning this one thing regardless of the circumstance. You can't just say if someone chooses to think of the word "nature" as meaning some one thing that they are on solid ground in regards to the SOP. That is facile.

Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted. (MM 181)


She also wrote:

Quote:
The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.(7 SDABC 926)


It is clear to see that "nature," as used here, does not need to be transformed, as it is something which pertains to Jesus Christ. We wouldn't say Christ's human nature, although described as "sinful" or "the nature of Adam the transgressor," needed to be transformed, would we?

Now I could conclude from this that anyone who said that human nature need not be transformed would be on solid ground, as far as the SOP is concerned, but this would be the same error I'm suggesting you are making. The word "nature" can mean different things, depending on the context.

I asked you if you agreed with the following:

Quote:
A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem. Death could have no power over a sinless man, as Adam was in Eden, and it could not have had any power over Christ, if the Lord had not laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Moreover, the fact that Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of a sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject, is shown by the statement that He "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." David had all the passions of human nature. He says of himself, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ps. 51:5.


I don't think you answered. I'm interested in what you disagree with here, if anything.

Quote:
The problem: We are selfish by nature.
The solution: We must partake of the divine nature.

When the First Adam fell, selfishness took the place of love. When the Second Adam came, He showed us what it looks like when love is in its rightful place in our hearts. That, in a nutshell, is the Gospel of redemption from that which enslaves us. Anything outside of that is not worth spending much time on.


I agree with the sentiments expressed here. A hearty "Amen!"

Quote:
When the Second Adam came, He showed us what it looks like when love is in its rightful place in our hearts.


He not only showed us what love looks like, He showed us what God looks like.

Quote:
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like. (John 1:18, CEV)


Of course, this isn't surprising, since God is love.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Tom] #105691
12/07/08 01:41 AM
12/07/08 01:41 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Arnold, here is an excerpt from a book (the original format did not cut and paste the same here):

Quote:
Human Nature
In order to better understand our sinful condition, we need to review basic human nature. “The nature of man is in opposition to the divine will, depraved, deformed, and wholly unlike the character of God expressed in his law.” (ST 6-9-1890) “The nature of man is threefold [encompassing] the physical, intellectual, and moral powers.” (FE 57) “It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ’s nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression.” (UL 18) Human nature is a composite of our five prominent faculties: will, mind, body, flesh, and character. We need to keep the following definitions in mind as we explore the various aspects of human nature throughout this book.

1. The Will
The will is our power of choice. It orchestrates all other aspects of human nature. Our will is under the influence and control of Satan until we surrender it to the influence and control of Christ. For instance, the will decides whether our mind is slave or master of our sinful flesh. It also determines whether we develop old man (sinful) or new man (sinless) traits of character.

The will is the governing power in the nature of man. If the will is set right, all the rest of the being will come under its sway. The will is not the taste or the inclination, but it is the choice, the deciding power, the kingly power, which works in the children of men unto obedience to God or to disobedience. (TE 113)

Every child should understand the true force of the will. He should be led to see how great is the responsibility involved in this gift. The will is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision, or choice. Every human being possessed of reason has power to choose the right. In every experience of life, God’s word to us is, “Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” Joshua 24:15. Everyone may place his will on the side of the will of God, may choose to obey Him, and by thus linking himself with divine agencies, he may stand where nothing can force him to do evil. In every youth, every child, lies the power, by the help of God, to form a character of integrity and to live a life of usefulness. (ED 289)

You need to drink daily at the fountain of truth, that you may understand the secret of pleasure and joy in the Lord. But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man.
But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: “Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure.” When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ’s character. (5T 515)

Our will is to be yielded to Him, that we may receive it again, purified and refined, and so linked in sympathy with the Divine that He can pour through us the tides of His love and power. (MB 62) When we place our will in unison with the will of God, the holy obedience that was exemplified in the life of Christ will be seen in our lives. (OHC 107)

2. The Mind
The mind consists, among other things, of the higher powers of intellect, reason, and conscience. Intellect deals with facts and figures, whereas reason processes causes and effects. Conscience involves knowing the moral difference between right and wrong. The faculties of the mind do not tempt us to sin.

The Spirit of God does not create new faculties in the converted man, but works a decided change in the employment of those faculties. When mind and heart and soul are changed, man is not given a new conscience, but his will is submitted to a conscience renewed, a conscience whose dormant sensibilities are aroused by the working of the Holy Spirit. (OHC 104)

New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. (TDG 186)

The appetites and passions must be held in subjection to the higher powers of the mind. (CC 271) Those who overcome will follow the example of Christ by bringing bodily appetites and passions under the control of enlightened conscience and reason. (CON 74)

Man, through yielding to Satan’s temptations to indulge intemperance, brings the higher faculties in subjection to the animal appetites and passions, and when these gain the ascendancy, man, who was created a little lower than the angels, with faculties susceptible of the highest cultivation, surrenders to the control of Satan. And he gains easy access to those who are in bondage to appetite. Through intemperance, some sacrifice one half, and others two thirds, of their physical, mental, and moral powers, and become playthings for the enemy.

Those who would have clear minds to discern Satan’s devices, must have their physical appetites under the control of reason and conscience. The moral and vigorous action of the higher powers of the mind are essential to the perfection of Christian character, and the strength or the weakness of the mind has very much to do with our usefulness in this world, and with our final salvation. (TE 146)

The appetites and passions, clamoring for indulgence, trample reason and conscience underfoot. This is the cruel work of Satan, and he is constantly putting forth the most determined efforts to strengthen the chains by which he has bound his victims. Those who have been all their lives indulging wrong habits do not always realize the necessity of a change.

Let the conscience be aroused and much is gained. Nothing but the grace of God can convict and convert the heart; here alone can the slaves of custom obtain power to break the shackles which bind them. The self-indulgent must be led to see and feel that a great moral renovation is necessary if they would meet the claims of the divine law; the soul-temple has been defiled, and God calls upon them to arouse and strive with all their might to win back the God-given manhood which has been sacrificed through sinful indulgence. (AG 100)

3. The Body
The body is our internal organs. It is where our appetites and passions reside and originate. Appetite has to do with food and drink, whereas passion is the seat of our emotions. As our body reacts to internal and external stimuli it produces innocent and legitimate needs, which are communicated as electrical impulses.

Our foes are within and without. We are assailed by temptations which are numerous and deceiving, the more perilous because not always clearly discerned. Often Satan conquers us by our natural inclinations and appetites. These were divinely appointed, and when given to man, were pure and holy. It was God’s design that reason should rule the appetites, and that they should minister to our happiness. And when they are regulated and controlled by a sanctified reason, they are holiness unto the Lord.

But men’s natural appetites have been perverted by indulgence. Through unholy gratification they have become “fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.” Unless the Christian watches unto prayer, he gives loose reign to habits which should be overcome. Unless he feels the need of constant watching, ceaseless vigilance, his inclinations, abused and misguided, will be the means of his backsliding from God. (14 MR 294, 295)

You are of that age when the will, the appetite, and the passions clamor for indulgence. God has implanted these in your nature for high and holy purposes. It is not necessary that they should become a curse to you by being debased. They will become this only when you refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience. (3T 84)

Christ came to bring to man moral power that he may be victorious in overcoming temptations on the point of appetite, and break the chain of the slavery of habit and indulgence of perverted appetite and stand forth in moral power as a man, and the record of heaven accredits him in its books as a man in the sight of God. (TE 264)

4. The Flesh
The flesh intercepts the innocent and legitimate needs produced by our body and converts them into unholy thoughts and feelings. For example, “I’m hungry”, is translated as, “Eat this and that”, without reference to truth or temperance. Our flesh has, as it were, a mind and voice of its own, which we must learn to disown as the voice of Satan. It generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings, and will continue to do so until Jesus returns and replaces it with a sinless body and flesh. “Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest ...” (MB 15) “The voice and passions must be crucified.” (TSB 98)

Possessing sinful flesh, however, is not a sin. Sinning is a matter of choice and character. We do not become accountable for our inherited sinful propensities until we desire them or act them out. The sinful thoughts and feelings produced by fallen flesh are nothing more than perverted legitimate needs that must be brought under the control of a sanctified mind and will.

The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words “flesh” or “fleshly” or “carnal lusts” embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. (AH 127)

The bodies of human beings, made for the dwelling place of God, had become the habitation of demons. The senses, the nerves, the passions, the organs of men, were worked by supernatural agencies in the indulgence of the vilest lust. The very stamp of demons was impressed upon the countenances of men. Human faces reflected the expression of the legions of evil with which they were possessed. (DA 36)

5. The Character
The character is composed of habitual thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and behavior. We develop specific traits of character as we repeatedly react and respond to the various influences of God and Satan. Apart from Christ, before we are born again, all we can do is develop sinful traits of character. We are not born with character. Sinful character is the result of hard work, the product of sinning over and over again, a compilation of hundreds and thousands of sins. To cultivate sinless traits of character we must be born again and partake of the divine nature. In judgment, it is character that ultimately determines our eternal destiny.

If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong, and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. (5T 310) The ideal of Christian character is Christlikeness. As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be perfect in their life. (FLB 44)

A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. (SC 57) Any one act, either good or evil, does not form the character; but thoughts and feelings indulged prepare the way for acts and deeds of the same kind. It is . . . by a repetition of acts that habits are established and character confirmed. (CG 199) It is not through one act that the character is formed, but by a repetition of acts that habits are established and character confirmed. (ST 4-30-1894)

Character does not come by chance. It is not determined by one outburst of temper, one step in the wrong direction. It is the repetition of the act that causes it to become habit, and molds the character either for good or for evil. (CG 164) A well-balanced character is formed by single acts well performed. One defect, cultivated instead of being overcome, makes the man imperfect, and closes against him the gate of the Holy City. (FLB 44) Mental ability and genius are not character, for these are often possessed by those who have the very opposite of a good character. Reputation is not character. True character is a quality of the soul, revealing itself in the conduct. (CG 161)

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105722
12/07/08 12:14 PM
12/07/08 12:14 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Colin
perfection of character, even with God's grace, is out of the question, as you must have heard by now follows from the official belief that Jesus' humanity is "sinful, but without sin".

I've heard it, more times than I care to recount. However, it is based on faulty logic, whether promoted by antimonians or disparaged by postlapsarians. And the constant wrangling between the two groups shows that they both do not realize what the problem is, and where the solution lies.

The problem: We are selfish by nature.
The solution: We must partake of the divine nature.

When the First Adam fell, selfishness took the place of love. When the Second Adam came, He showed us what it looks like when love is in its rightful place in our hearts. That, in a nutshell, is the Gospel of redemption from that which enslaves us. Anything outside of that is not worth spending much time on.

There is no question that that is the problem and solution! Did God's formula in Jesus sort out that solution???...Is the groundwork, the foundation, of that solution correctly in place, in our teaching? Why do you 5hink the church literature and preaching has completely changed its Gospel conclusion away
from complete victory over sin? Ellen White and her contemporaries were unanimous about the victoriously righteous effects of us participating in the divine nature? Why do you think is there this complete, generational difference of belief?

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Colin] #105799
12/08/08 05:07 PM
12/08/08 05:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Arnold, if Jesus came only to die as our substitute, only to pay our sin debt of death - then it wouldn't matter if He was like Adam before or after the fall. All that would matter is that He become human so that He could die. As God He couldn't die. But as the God-man He could die. His death would have satisfied the just and loving demands of law and justice concerning past sins. But that's all it would have done. And, as such, it would have been insufficient to eliminate the whole problem.

However, that is not the only reason Jesus became a human. And to satisfy those other reasons it matters very much whether He was like Adam before the fall or like Adam after the fall. One of the other things Jesus came to prove is that even people born in sin (people who inherit internal foes, that is, evil traits and tendencies which continually clamor for sinful expression, which ceaselessly tempt and annoy) can, in spite of their sinful condition and circumstances, experience rebirth and obey the law perfectly.

The only way Jesus could have accomplished this necessary goal was to become like us, to inherit our sinful flesh, to resist its unholy clamorings, and to develop a spotless character in spite of His sinful condition and circumstances. Jesus said, "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." He did not come to save Adam before he fell, rather, He came to save those who are fallen. It would serve nothing if it was Jesus' goal to save sinners from a life of sinning if He came in likeness of Adam before he fell.

Jesus' victories would be meaningless to us knowing we could never imitate them in our sinful state. However, the fact we can imitate them in our sinful state is evidence Jesus could have done the same, indeed, He did. Nothing speaks more eloquently in favor of the law of God than when people possessed of sinful flesh triumphantly live in harmony with all of its precepts and principles. Who can gainsay such a testimony? None! No, not one! This is Jesus' testimony. And, it is our testimony - if we are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus.

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Mountain Man] #105802
12/08/08 05:25 PM
12/08/08 05:25 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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MM, much more than my inherited tendencies, I have to deal with my cultivated tendencies to sin. Furthermore, I am rebellious and desperately wicked. Do I have an example that fits my situation? Or are those such as I doomed to failure because we have no sinless example who suffered the same maladies?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105863
12/09/08 06:41 PM
12/09/08 06:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Arnold, what is the practical difference between resisting and reining in inherited tendencies and cultivated tendencies? I believe, so long as people are pardoned and abiding in Jesus, there is no practical difference. The same dynamics are at work.

Also, is it accurate to say a person is rebellious and desperately wicked while they are actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus? Paul wrote, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

He also wrote, "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." And, "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." And, "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."

I do not hear Paul describing these kinds of people as rebellious and desperately wicked. I will readily admit, though, that people are never more than one decision away from reverting back to their former sinful ways, from resurrecting their old man and resuming a life of sin. However, while they are abiding in Jesus they resist and rein in their sinful potential and tendencies. None are contaminated while thus abiding in Jesus. Thus it was while Jesus sojourned among us possessed of sinful flesh.

Do you see what I mean?

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Mountain Man] #105864
12/09/08 06:51 PM
12/09/08 06:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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PS - Jesus did not come to demonstrate what it's like to be lost. Instead, He demonstrated what it takes to be saved. Therefore, He demonstrated what born again believers must do to stay saved. He definitely did not demonstrate what it's like to sin and repent, sin and repent.

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Mountain Man] #105869
12/09/08 10:47 PM
12/09/08 10:47 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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MM said: One of the other things Jesus came to prove is that even people born in sin (people who inherit internal foes, that is, evil traits and tendencies which continually clamor for sinful expression, which ceaselessly tempt and annoy) can, in spite of their sinful condition and circumstances, experience rebirth and obey the law perfectly.

Jesus never experienced rebirth. None could accurately say to Him, "You must be born again." His first birth was good enough. And you acknowledge this in your last post.

Does that mean that Jesus was not an example for those who must be born again? Was He not an example to those who not only were born in sin, but have lived in sin? I believe He was.

Even so, I do not believe that He had to become what He wanted to save. If He did, then we would have to throw out quite a bit of Scripture, such as "in Him there is no sin."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105870
12/09/08 10:57 PM
12/09/08 10:57 PM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
Jesus never experienced rebirth. None could accurately say to Him, "You must be born again." His first birth was good enough. And you acknowledge this in your last post.


Of course it depends upon what exactly one means, but I don't think this is necessarily true. If one understands "born again" to imply that one has sinned, then, yes, of course, one could not say Jesus needed to be born again. But if "born again" means the experience of righteousness by faith, then that's certainly an experience Jesus Christ had.

Here's specifically what I'm thinking of. The SOP tells us that our natures will inevitably lead us into sin, apart from divine help. We must be partakers of the divine nature by faith, or else we will sin. This was Jesus Christ's experience. He was a partaker of the divine nature by faith. Of course, He Himself was divine, and this was His own nature, but as a human being He must fight as we must fight as we do. His assumed human nature, being "identical to our own," was just as incapable of overcoming apart from a connection with God by faith (i.e. partaking of the divine nature by faith) as ours is.

Regarding Christ and cultivated sin, He bore our sins His whole life. MM has made this point elsewhere, and I was curious to see if he would make it here.

Jesus Christ took both our sinful nature and our sins; this combination allowed him to experience sin as deeply as we do. More deeply, even, since He bore the sins of all. This is a point that Jones made in detail in his 1895 GCB sermons.

Quote:
Even so, I do not believe that He had to become what He wanted to save. If He did, then we would have to throw out quite a bit of Scripture, such as "in Him there is no sin."


The Scripture says "He who knew no sin became sin for us," so there's no need to throw anything out! "What He has not assumed, He has not healed."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Tom] #105876
12/10/08 01:35 AM
12/10/08 01:35 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Jesus Christ took both our sinful nature and our sins; this combination allowed him to experience sin as deeply as we do. More deeply, even, since He bore the sins of all. This is a point that Jones made in detail in his 1895 GCB sermons.

Quote:
His burden of guilt was so great because of man's transgression of his Father's law, that human nature was inadequate to bear it. {ST, August 14, 1879 par. 11}


Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Even so, I do not believe that He had to become what He wanted to save. If He did, then we would have to throw out quite a bit of Scripture, such as "in Him there is no sin."

The Scripture says "He who knew no sin became sin for us," so there's no need to throw anything out!

That would be true, if that's all Scripture was. But there are other verses. Anyway, Jesus became sin. Is anyone else "sin" that we know of?

Originally Posted By: Tom
"What He has not assumed, He has not healed."

Well, I don't buy everything Gregory sold.

Also, sin is not healed; it is crucified. Waggoner mentions something like this in his comments on the carnal mind.

If Jesus had to become what He came to save, then He would have had to have a carnal mind. I don't think He did.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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