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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105882
12/10/08 02:44 AM
12/10/08 02:44 AM
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Colin  Offline
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E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Even so, I do not believe that He had to become what He wanted to save. If He did, then we would have to throw out quite a bit of Scripture, such as "in Him there is no sin."


The Scripture says "He who knew no sin became sin for us," so there's no need to throw anything out!

Quote:
That would be true, if that's all Scripture was. But there are other verses. Anyway, Jesus became sin. Is anyone else "sin" that we know of?

And "likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom 8:3) is best read as thus human as well as deity in sinful human flesh. Jesus' involvement with human nature has several angles, but never blur the line between Christ's flesh and his mind - a particular point of A T Jones.
Quote:
If Jesus had to become what He came to save, then He would have had to have a carnal mind. I don't think He did.

Not quite, hey: Jesus came to save sinful sinners, not the carnal mind. It's the carnal mind - an exercised sinful mind - that needs change for our transformation, not so.

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Colin] #105884
12/10/08 03:01 AM
12/10/08 03:01 AM
teresaq  Offline
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i have a question.:) where in the bible does it say that Jesus struggled with, say, covetousness, or lustful thoughts, etc?

what are the exact temptations Jesus suffered that are recorded in the scriptures?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: teresaq] #105888
12/10/08 04:44 AM
12/10/08 04:44 AM
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Colin  Offline
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That's Paul's list, after which he found freedom from his sinful body in Christ (Rom 7). Otherwise, he was tempted in all points like we are, and is touched with the feelings of our infirmities (Heb 4:15): he felt them ALL.

"Touched with our feelings" is the title of a book documenting the history of our church's publications and authors' statements on Christ's natures, from 1848-1994. Written by Jean Zurcher, retired Prof. of Collonges Adventist Seminary, and the Euro-Africa BRI, foreword written by retired Review Editor-in-Chief Kenneth Woods (just recently passed away, I think; both maybe). This book was originally in French, and was the last scholarly book on the topic that was published, I think: it won the argument as to what the church and EGW jointly held as our belief, in the present dispute...At last year's 50th anniversary meeting about Questions on Doctrine, Woodrow Whidden III conceded on behalf of the Andrews Seminary that the official doctrine today is a new, alternative to the original, and there is a need to sort out different understandings today - potentially in favour of the original.

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Colin] #105889
12/10/08 04:57 AM
12/10/08 04:57 AM
teresaq  Offline
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it seems to me that looking at the specific temptations recorded we would have a better idea of what the nonspecific verses mean.

Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105897
12/10/08 07:10 AM
12/10/08 07:10 AM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:The Scripture says "He who knew no sin became sin for us," so there's no need to throw anything out!

A:That would be true, if that's all Scripture was. But there are other verses. Anyway, Jesus became sin. Is anyone else "sin" that we know of?


This question reminded me of the following from Waggoner:

Quote:
Sin is a personal matter. A man is guilty only of his own sins, and not of those which another has committed. Now I can not sin where I am not, but only where I am. Sin is in the heart of man; "for from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness; all these evil things come from within." Mark 7:21-23. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." Jer.17:9. Sin is in every fiber of our being by nature. We are born in sin, and our life is sin, so that sin can not be taken from us without taking our life. What I need is freedom from my own personal sin,--that sin which not only has been committed by me personally, but which dwells in the heart,--the sin which constitutes the whole of my life.

"His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins." Prov.5:22. "For though thou wash thee with niter, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before Me, saith the Lord." Jer.2:22. My sin is committed by myself, in myself, and I can not separate it from me. Cast it on the Lord? Ah, yes, that is right, but how? Can I gather it up in my hands, and cast it from me, so that it will light upon Him?--I can not. If I could separate it but a hair's breadth from me, then I should be safe, no matter what became of it, since it would not be found in me. In that case I could dispense with Christ; for if sin were not found on me, it would make no matter to me where it was found. If I could gather up my sins so as to lay them upon Christ crucified apart from me, then I would not need to put them on Him. They would then be away from me, and that would clear me. But no works of any kind that I can do can save me; therefore, all my efforts to separate myself from my sins are unavailing.

"I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." Christ was crucified; He was "delivered for our offenses, and raised again for our justification." Rom.4:25. But unless we are crucified with Him, His death and resurrection profit us nothing. If the cross of Christ is separated from us, and outside of us, even though it be but by so much as a moment of time and an hair's breadth of space, it is to us all the same as if He were not crucified. No one was ever saved simply by looking forward to a cross to be erected and a Christ to be crucified at some indefinite time in the future, and no one can now be saved simply by believing that at a certain time in the past Christ was crucified. No; if men would see Christ crucified, they must look neither forward nor backward, but upward; for the arms of the cross that was erected on Calvary reach from Paradise lost to Paradise restored, and embrace the whole world of sin. The crucifixion of Christ is not a thing of but a single day. He is "the Lamb that hath been slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8, R.V.); and the pangs of Calvary will not be ended as long as a single sin or sinner exists in the universe. Even now Christ bears the sins of the whole world, for "in Him all things consist;" and when at the last He is obliged to cut off the irreclaimably wicked in the lake of fire, the anguish which they suffer will be only that which the Christ whom they have rejected suffered on the cross. (The Glad Tidings)


Quote:
T:"What He has not assumed, He has not healed."

A:Sin is not healed; it is crucified.


Christ assumed humanity, not sin.

Quote:
Waggoner mentions something like this in his comments on the carnal mind.


Waggoner expressed a similar thought to Gregory:

Quote:
A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem. Death could have no power over a sinless man, as Adam was in Eden, and it could not have had any power over Christ, if the Lord had not laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Moreover, the fact that Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of a sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject, is shown by the statement that He "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." David had all the passions of human nature. He says of himself, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ps. 51:5. (Christ and His Righteousness)


Quote:
If Jesus had to become what He came to save, then He would have had to have a carnal mind. I don't think He did.


Christ did not have to actually sin in order to heal us. He came as close as possible to us without participating in sin. Taking our sinful nature, and our sin, allowed Him to assume the role of elder brother, and high priest, able to have compassion upon us in that He also was compassed with infirmity.

If Jesus had to become what He came to save, then He would have had to have a carnal mind. I don't think He did.[/quote]


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Tom] #105905
12/10/08 07:29 PM
12/10/08 07:29 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
T:"What He has not assumed, He has not healed."

A:Sin is not healed; it is crucified.

Christ assumed humanity, not sin.

We are humanity WITH sin.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Waggoner expressed a similar thought to Gregory:

I don't buy everything Waggoner sells either.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem.

Let's see if that logic is correct by replacing the critical adjective.

"it must have been _______ man that He was made like, for it is _______ man that He came to redeem."

"it must have been Satanic man that He was made like, for it is Satanic man that He came to redeem."

"it must have been murderous man that He was made like, for it is murderous man that He came to redeem."

"it must have been carnal man that He was made like, for it is carnal man that He came to redeem."

"it must have been rebellious man that He was made like, for it is rebellious man that He came to redeem."

"it must have been vitiated man that He was made like, for it is vitiated man that He came to redeem."

"it must have been selfish man that He was made like, for it is selfish man that He came to redeem."

"it must have been unchristlike man that He was made like, for it is unchristlike man that He came to redeem."

"it must have been lost man that He was made like, for it is lost man that He came to redeem."

Either I don't know what Jesus is like, or "like" doesn't mean what some people think it means.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
If Jesus had to become what He came to save, then He would have had to have a carnal mind. I don't think He did.

Christ did not have to actually sin in order to heal us.

IOW, He did not have to be what He wanted to heal. That's what I said. That's where Gregory was wrong.

And I would put it even stronger than you did. Jesus COULD NOT actually sin in order to heal us.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: asygo] #105927
12/11/08 02:45 AM
12/11/08 02:45 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Tom


Christ assumed humanity, not sin.


We are humanity WITH sin.

Actually, Tom misstated it by not distinguishing a human being from his action - which he would normally do, I think.

Christ assumed our sinful humanity, without sinning.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:

If Jesus had to become what He came to save, then He would have had to have a carnal mind. I don't think He did.


Christ did not have to actually sin in order to heal us.


IOW, He did not have to be what He wanted to heal. That's what I said. That's where Gregory was wrong.

And I would put it even stronger than you did. Jesus COULD NOT actually sin in order to heal us.

Of course, but you're wrong on your premise: while he could not act according to our sinful humanity which he assumed if he was going to heal us of it, he did have to take it itself to heal us of it.

Jesus had to become flesh to redeem flesh from its sin and death by his righteous death, and give spiritual life to his brethern by producing righteousness with God's power and the sinful humanity he assumed. That's the fulness of the Gospel.

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Colin] #105937
12/11/08 08:09 AM
12/11/08 08:09 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Colin, I agree with your points in the bottom of your post, which are well stated, but regarding your comment that I made a misstatement, I did not. The Spirit of Prophecy says Christ assumed humanity in a number of places. Here's one:

Quote:
(Christ) assumed humanity, that humanity might touch humanity, while his divinity grasped the throne of God.(Special Testimonies On Education, page 67)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Tom] #105946
12/11/08 04:13 PM
12/11/08 04:13 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
That's not my point - especially in view of what we agree on: you wrote that Christ assumed humanity but not sin; yet you meant sinful humanity, didn't you? - so he did assume humanity's sinfulness without indulging in its sinfulness, not so.

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Re: Lesson #8 - Born of a Woman—Atonement and the INCARNATION [Re: Colin] #105947
12/11/08 04:37 PM
12/11/08 04:37 PM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Colin
so he did assume humanity's sinfulness without indulging in its sinfulness, not so.

The key, at least for me, is this: Was Jesus morally imperfect as the rest of us are?

My answer: No
My guess at Colin's answer: Yes
My guess at Tom's answer: What I'm talking about has nothing to do with morality

Correct?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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