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Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #107213
01/06/09 06:40 PM
01/06/09 06:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, please address #107085 and #107087 above on this thread. Thank you.

Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #107218
01/06/09 08:04 PM
01/06/09 08:04 PM
Tom  Offline
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I didn't understand your questions in 107085. Following is 107087.

Quote:
Found this interesting quote:

He [Ellen White's angelic guide] stretched out his arms toward Dr. Waggoner and to you, Elder Butler, and said in substance as follows: "Neither have all the light upon the law, neither position is perfect. 'Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart' (Psalm 97:11). There are hundreds that know not why they believe the doctrines they do."--Letter 21, 1888, pp. 6,7. (To G. I. Butler, October 14, 1888.) {9MR 218.1}

Tom, you seem to think Waggoner got it all right, whereas the angel told Ellen that his position was not perfect, that it was lacking light. How do you reconcile the contradiction?


I responded to this. The letter was written before the 1888 GC session. From that session on Ellen White was clear that God had given Waggoner a message, and that rejecting that message was rejecting Christ, and many other strong endorsements. For example:

Quote:
Would greater evidence, more powerful manifestations, break down the barriers that have been interposed between the truth and the soul?--No. I have been shown that sufficient evidence has been given. Those who reject the evidence already presented would not be convinced by more abundant proof. They are like the Jews to whom Christ said, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." The greatest miracles performed before them would not sweep away their caviling and unbelief. They have sown stubbornness, and it has borne fruit according to the design of Satan. Unless the transforming grace of Christ cleanses and purifies the soul, they will go on from darkness to greater darkness. (1888 Mat. 1057)


Quote:
The manner in which the Pharisees sought to evade the truth, and to turn the attention of the people away from vital lessons,--by starting questions that did not bear upon the subject,--is one in which the opposers of truth in all ages have taken refuge. Satan, who is proficient in all manner of arts for the resisting of truth, suggests to his agents plans whereby they may reject the counsel of God against themselves. He incites the opposers of truth to start false issues, to discuss questions that are not to the point, in order that those who are convicted and half convinced, may be turned aside from their investigation and acceptance of truth. Ever since the days of Christ there have been men whose attitude toward truth has said, "Depart from me, O God. I want not thy way, but my own way." (1888 Mat. 1061)


Quote:
My brother, why do you cherish such bitterness against Elder A.T. Jones and Elder Waggoner? It is for the same reason Cain hated Abel. Cain refused to heed the instruction of God, and because Abel sought God, and followed His will, Cain killed him. God has given Brother Jones and Brother Waggoner a message for the people. You do not believe that God has upheld them, but He has given them precious light, and their message has fed the people of God. When you reject the message borne by these men, you reject Christ, the Giver of the message.(1888 Mat. 1353)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #107219
01/06/09 08:07 PM
01/06/09 08:07 PM
Tom  Offline
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MM, regarding your #107210, if your analysis were correct, then Waggoner's position would have been neither as clear as sunlight, not "truth." So I don't see how this analysis could be correct, unless Ellen White was incorrect in her assessment of Waggoner's view on the covenants. That is, your assessment and hers look to be diametrically opposed; both of you can't be right.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #107221
01/06/09 08:26 PM
01/06/09 08:26 PM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
Insisting that people who lived before the Exodus had better reasons for keeping the Sabbath than what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11 does not prove it, Tom. Please post a quote from the SOP that specifically says so, that is, that specifically says the people who lived before the Exodus had better reasons for keeping the Sabbath than what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11. The quote you posted earlier was too generic to prove your point. It didn’t mention anything in particular, and it certainly didn’t say anything about why people kept the Sabbath.


I never asserted that had better reasons for keep the Sabbath. Is it not possible for you to assert something or ask something that corresponds to something I actually wrote? Why don't you do what I suggest and quote something I wrote?

Moving on. Why don't you quote something from the SOP which says that the COI had no reason for keeping the Sabbath other than the passages in Genesis or Exodus? If you have to quote something from the SOP to establish truth, that applies to you as much as to me.

What I have said is that the knowledge of the COI was not limited to what Moses wrote. There was a vast oral tradition, and anyone who knows something about how the cannon was formed knows this. It is not necessary to establish every bit of common knowledge from the SOP. This is like asking, "How do you know 2 + 2 = 4 ? Can you produce a quote from the SOP?"

The quote I provided establishes that there was a great degree of knowledge developed and passed along by very intelligent men who studied for centuries. Do you think the Sabbath would have been of no interest to them?

Quote:
Ellen wrote, “Now they were prepared to appreciate the blessings of the new covenant . . . If the Israelites had obeyed God's requirements, they would have been practical Christians. They would have been happy; for they would have been keeping God's ways, and not following the inclinations of their own natural hearts.”

She also wrote, “The covenant that God made with His people at Sinai is to be our refuge and defense . . . This covenant is of just as much force today as it was when the Lord made it with ancient Israel . . . “All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.” This is the pledge that God's people are to make in these last days.”

How do you reconcile what you wrote with what she wrote?



In PP she says:

Quote:
The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. (PP 372)


Obedience involved this. That is, the law cannot be obeyed if it is not written in the heart. If the law were written in their heart, they would not be following the inclinations of their unregenerated heart. Understanding that obedience involves obedience from the heart explains the first paragraph.

Regarding the Second, there is only one Covenant under which one may be saved, which is the Everlasting Covenant. This is the Covenant which God proposed to Israel. Regarding the statement, "All that the Lord has said, we will do" there is nothing necessarily wrong with these words or the sentiment behind these words. The COI did not have a heart to keep God's law, but made this statement in unbelief. That was their problem, and why they came under bondage. Had they responded in faith, the law would have been written in their heart, and they would have been under the Everlasting Covenant (also known as the "New Covenant") which is the only one under which a person can be saved. Saying the words "All that the Lord has said, we will do" in faith is what she had in mind for God's people.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Tom] #107281
01/08/09 01:18 AM
01/08/09 01:18 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
I didn't understand your questions in 107085.

Here it is again:

Quote:
T: Here are some statements which deal with the importance of faith based on evidence. How Jesus proceeded on the road to Emmaus is a good example. He didn't just tell them the truth, so that they would believe it "because I said so," but explained things from Scripture, so their faith would be based on evidence, reason and understanding. The last statement discusses what happens when people do things because "God said so," without understanding why.

M: Which scriptures did Jesus quote which contain more information than a mere "Thus saith the Lord"? Also, where in the Pentateuch did Moses explain that the animal sacrifices symbolize the future sacrifice of the Son of God?

Do we have any record of any additional reasons Jesus gave the guys on the road to Emmaus for believing the passages He quoted to them from the OT? Or, do those passages already contain enough reasons for believing them that to do so would not require slavish obedience? I ask this question because it seems like you are saying Jesus quoted from the OT to prove that what He was telling them is true, that between His word and the quotes from the OT He gave additional reasons to believe Him and the OT quotes, that by themselves not enough evidence existed to render intelligent obedience.

Also, where in the Pentateuch did Moses explain that the animal sacrifices symbolize the future sacrifice of the Son of God?

Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #107282
01/08/09 01:26 AM
01/08/09 01:26 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
From that session on Ellen White was clear that God had given Waggoner a message, and that rejecting that message was rejecting Christ, and many other strong endorsements.

Yes, Ellen very clearly endorsed whatever Waggoner was preaching about at the time. Do know precisely what it was that she so wholeheartedly endorsed? I read through the Ten Truths on that link you posted (don't know where) but didn't find anything all that startling. I do remember having concerns regarding several things. Do you know where that post of mine is?

Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #107283
01/08/09 02:44 AM
01/08/09 02:44 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: You didn't answer my question. Here it is again: Do these verses require "slavish" obedience since they do not contain "better" reasons why God commands people to rest on the seventh day? NOTE: The passage in Genesis is the only thing people had for 2500 years.

T: No it's not. I don't know why you would think this. There was a vast oral tradition, a part of which was included in the books of Moses, which include Job, as well as the Pentateuch. Your assumption that this is all they had is incorrect. You're insisting all they had was Gen. 2:1-3. I'm pointing out this isn't the case. It's an oral tradition, MM, not a written one.

M: Insisting that people who lived before the Exodus had better reasons for keeping the Sabbath than what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11 does not prove it, Tom. Please post a quote from the SOP that specifically says so, that is, that specifically says the people who lived before the Exodus had better reasons for keeping the Sabbath than what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11. The quote you posted earlier was too generic to prove your point. It didn’t mention anything in particular, and it certainly didn’t say anything about why people kept the Sabbath.

T: I never asserted they had better reasons for keeping the Sabbath. Is it not possible for you to assert something or ask something that corresponds to something I actually wrote? Why don't you do what I suggest and quote something I wrote? The quote I provided establishes that there was a great degree of knowledge developed and passed along by very intelligent men who studied for centuries. Do you think the Sabbath would have been of no interest to them?

I included in the box above everything you said about it. As you can see, you said that through oral tradition they had more reasons for keeping the Sabbath than the one Moses recorded in Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:8-11.

Quote:
M: Ellen wrote, “Now they were prepared to appreciate the blessings of the new covenant . . . If the Israelites had obeyed God's requirements, they would have been practical Christians. They would have been happy; for they would have been keeping God's ways, and not following the inclinations of their own natural hearts.”

She also wrote, “The covenant that God made with His people at Sinai is to be our refuge and defense . . . This covenant is of just as much force today as it was when the Lord made it with ancient Israel . . . “All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.” This is the pledge that God's people are to make in these last days.”

How do you reconcile what you wrote with what she wrote?

T: In PP she says: “The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. (PP 372)

Obedience involved this. That is, the law cannot be obeyed if it is not written in the heart. If the law were written in their heart, they would not be following the inclinations of their unregenerated heart. Understanding that obedience involves obedience from the heart explains the first paragraph.

Regarding the Second, there is only one Covenant under which one may be saved, which is the Everlasting Covenant. This is the Covenant which God proposed to Israel. Regarding the statement, "All that the Lord has said, we will do" there is nothing necessarily wrong with these words or the sentiment behind these words. The COI did not have a heart to keep God's law, but made this statement in unbelief. That was their problem, and why they came under bondage. Had they responded in faith, the law would have been written in their heart, and they would have been under the Everlasting Covenant (also known as the "New Covenant") which is the only one under which a person can be saved. Saying the words "All that the Lord has said, we will do" in faith is what she had in mind for God's people.

Regarding my first paragraph, it seems like you are agreeing with me that the Jews were able to experience the blessings of the NC while also obeying and observing the OC rules and rites, that it wasn’t an obstacle.

Regarding my second paragraph, it seems like you are saying she is referring to the EC/NC and not to the OC. However, here is what she said about it:

Quote:
God's favor toward Israel had always been conditional on their obedience. At the foot of Sinai they had entered into covenant relationship with Him as His "peculiar treasure. . . above all people." Solemnly they had promised to follow in the path of obedience. "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do," they had said. Exodus 19:5, 8. And when, a few days afterward, God's law was spoken from Sinai, and additional instruction in the form of statutes and judgments was communicated through Moses, the Israelites with one voice had again promised, "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do." At the ratification of the covenant, the people had once more united in declaring, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient," Exodus 24:3, 7. God had chosen Israel as His people, and they had chosen Him as their King. {PK 293.1}

Preparation was now made for the ratification of the covenant, according to God's directions. . . . {1BC 1107.2}

Here the people received the conditions of the covenant. They made a solemn covenant with God, typifying the covenant made between God and every believer in Jesus Christ. The conditions were plainly laid before the people. They were not left to misunderstand them. When they were requested to decide whether they would agree to all the conditions given, they unanimously consented to obey every obligation. They had already consented to obey God's commandments. The principles of the law were now particularized, that they might know how much was involved in covenanting to obey the law; and they accepted the specifically defined particulars of the law. {1BC 1107.3}

If the Israelites had obeyed God's requirements, they would have been practical Christians. They would have been happy; for they would have been keeping God's ways, and not following the inclinations of their own natural hearts. Moses did not leave them to misconstrue the words of the Lord or to misapply His requirements. He wrote all the words of the Lord in a book, that they might be referred to afterward. In the mount he had written them as Christ Himself dictated them. {1BC 1107.4}

Bravely did the Israelites speak the words promising obedience to the Lord, after hearing His covenant read in the audience of the people. They said, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." Then the people were set apart and sealed to God. A sacrifice was offered to the Lord. A portion of the blood of the sacrifice was sprinkled upon the altar. This signified that the people had consecrated themselves--body, mind, and soul--to God. A portion was sprinkled upon the people. This signified that through the sprinkled blood of Christ, God graciously accepted them as His special treasure. Thus the Israelites entered into a solemn covenant with God (MS 126, 1901). {1BC 1107.5}

The covenant that God made with His people at Sinai is to be our refuge and defense....This covenant is of just as much force today as it was when the Lord made it with ancient Israel. {AG 142.2}

[Ex 19:7, 8 quoted, which includes, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do] This is the pledge that God's people are to make in these last days. Their acceptance with God depends on a faithful fulfillment of the terms of their agreement with Him. God includes in His covenant all who will obey Him. {1BC 1103.11}

You wrote, “Had they responded in faith, the law would have been written in their heart, and they would have been under the Everlasting Covenant (also known as the "New Covenant") which is the only one under which a person can be saved.”

But don’t you also believe the Jews were required to obey and observe the OC rules and rites while also enjoying the blessings of the EC/NC? And, in fact, wasn’t their salvation, in part, conditional on obeying and observing the OC rules and rites? That is, it wasn’t optional, right? As such, how was this any different than it is nowadays under the EC/NC?

Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #107296
01/08/09 07:23 AM
01/08/09 07:23 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
M:I included in the box above everything you said about it. As you can see, you said that through oral tradition they had more reasons for keeping the Sabbath than the one Moses recorded in Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:8-11.


What you asserted was I said they had "better reasons." Here's what you said:

Quote:
Insisting that people who lived before the Exodus had better reasons for keeping the Sabbath than what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11 does not prove it, Tom. Please post a quote from the SOP that specifically says so, that is, that specifically says the people who lived before the Exodus had better reasons for keeping the Sabbath than what Moses wrote in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11.


Here you wrote "more reasons" instead of "better reasons." In regards to what you actually claimed, that I was "insisting" that they had "better reasons" I responded, "I never asserted they had better reasons for keeping the Sabbath." As you can see from what you quoted, what you asserted is wrong; indeed, I did not assert they had "better reasons."

Quote:
Regarding my first paragraph, it seems like you are agreeing with me that the Jews were able to experience the blessings of the NC while also obeying and observing the OC rules and rites, that it wasn’t an obstacle.


I didn't discuss this.

Quote:
Regarding my second paragraph, it seems like you are saying she is referring to the EC/NC and not to the OC.


She wrote that salvation is only found under the Everlasting Covenant. Paul wrote that the OC "gendereth to bondage." EGW contrasted the OC with the NC in the PP passage stating that in the NC the law was written in the tables of the heart as opposed to on tables of stone. Also that instead of seeking to establish our own righteousness, the OC, we accept the righteousness of Christ (NC). Seeking to establish our own righteousness characterizes the OC, as EGW points out.

Quote:
The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins.(PP 372)


As she points out, the NC was established under better promises, which included the forgiveness of sins, in addition to having the law written in the heart.

Quote:
The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. (ibid.)


Since the OC did not have these things, it could do no other but lead to bondage, as Paul stated.

Regarding the rest of the post, I think there's a confusion in regards to the ceremonial law, which was a celebration of the Gospel promises in Christ, and the OC. The OC should be contrasted with the NC, in the terms that EGW laid out:

1.OC = law on stove vs. NC = law in heart.
2.OC = seeking to establish one's own righteousness vs. NC = accept righteousness of Christ.
3.OC = no forgiveness vs. NC = forgiveness of sins.
4.OC = bondage vs. NC = liberty.
5.OC = lost vs. NC = salvation (salvation only under EC)

These highlight the difference between the OC and the NC. A simple way of looking at this is OC = bad; NC = good. So if inspiration speaks of something good in responds to a covenant, it has the covenant which God originated, the good one, the everlasting covenant, the only one which confers salvation, in mind. We have no need to be under a covenant under which there is no salvation.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Tom] #107297
01/08/09 07:53 AM
01/08/09 07:53 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
Do we have any record of any additional reasons Jesus gave the guys on the road to Emmaus for believing the passages He quoted to them from the OT?


Additional reasons? Here's what I wrote:

Quote:
T: Here are some statements which deal with the importance of faith based on evidence. How Jesus proceeded on the road to Emmaus is a good example. He didn't just tell them the truth, so that they not would believe it "because I said so," but explained things from Scripture, so their faith would be based on evidence, reason and understanding. The last statement discusses what happens when people do things because "God said so," without understanding why.


Your question doesn't seem responsive to what I intended to say. Nor the rest of what you wrote after this. It seems you didn't understand what I was saying. In looking at this, I notice I missed a "not" (underlined above), so that may have confused you. Please reread what I wrote, with the "not" in place, and see if that makes more sense. Sorry for any confusion.

Quote:
Also, where in the Pentateuch did Moses explain that the animal sacrifices symbolize the future sacrifice of the Son of God?


Why are you asking this? When you ask these rhetorical questions, obviously you have some point in mind. Why not just make the point?

Quote:
Yes, Ellen very clearly endorsed whatever Waggoner was preaching about at the time. Do know precisely what it was that she so wholeheartedly endorsed? I read through the Ten Truths on that link you posted (don't know where) but didn't find anything all that startling. I do remember having concerns regarding several things. Do you know where that post of mine is?


No, I don't know where your post is, but I know where the "Ten Truths" is: http://www.gospel-herald.com/10truths/ten_truths.htm

By the way, if you google "Ten Truths 1888," this comes right up, so if you forget where this is, but can remember to google, you can find it again.

Regarding what they were preaching at the time, while things like the "Ten Truths" are helpful for discussing things, the best was of ascertaining what they were saying is simply to read it from their own pens. The following site has many writings from Jones and Waggoner: http://www.crcbermuda.com/bible/righteousness-by-faith/christ-and-his-righteousness

There's a menu option on top called "Bible" and then you can choose "Righteousness by Faith," which has many things which they wrote to look at. If you're interested in what was presented at the 1888 GC session, "Christ and His Righteousness" would be a good thing to look at.

I wouldn't look for something "startling" however. Rather, look for principles of truth. In particular, what Colin suggested was foundational, is a good thing to look for.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Is it possible to obey God before understanding His reasons for giving the command? [Re: Mountain Man] #107316
01/08/09 09:02 PM
01/08/09 09:02 PM
teresaq  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Teresaq
M: I see harmony in her statements. Do you see harmony in them? And, do you see harmony between Ellen and Elliot?

t: so, youre saying that this glad tidings quote, in essence is not saying the same thing as egw in pp? that the quotes you provided cancel out the glad tidings quotes, but not her other statements in the pp?

Yes and no. Yes, I believe all the quotes I posted agree with the PP quote you posted. And, no, I didn't say one way or another if her statements agree with Waggoner's statements in the Glad Tidings quote that was posted. I was interested in what you think. You expressed your opinion about it when you wrote, The PP quote “backs up the quote from glad tidings”. I was merely hoping you would elaborate on how and why. At any rate, here's what I think about it.

Here’s the Glad Tidings quote:

Quote:
The Glad Tidings

What are the two covenants?--The two women, Hagar and Sarah; for we read that Hagar is Mount Sinai, "which gendereth to bondage." That is, just as Hagar could not bring forth any other kind of children than slaves, so the law, even the law that God spoke from Sinai, can not beget freemen. It can do nothing but hold them in bondage. "The law worketh wrath:" "for by the law is the knowledge of sin." The same is true of the covenant from Sinai, for it consisted merely of the promise of the people to keep that law, and had, therefore, no more power to make them free than the law itself had,--no more power than they already had in their bondage. Nay, rather, it "gendered to bondage," since their making it was simply a promise to make themselves righteous by their own works, and man in himself is "without strength."

Consider the situation: The people were in the bondage of sin; they had no power to break their chains; but the speaking of the law made no change in their condition; it introduced no new feature. If a man is in prison for crime, you can not release him by reading the statutes to him. It was the law that put him there, and the reading of it to him only makes his captivity more painful.

"Then did not God Himself lead them into bondage?"--Not by any means; since He did not induce them to make that covenant at Sinai. Four hundred and thirty years before that time He had made a covenant with Abraham, which was sufficient for all purposes. That covenant was confirmed in Christ, and, therefore, was a covenant from above. See John 8:23. It promised righteousness as a free gift of God through faith, and it included all nations. All the miracles that God had wrought in delivering the children of Israel from Egyptian bondage were but demonstrations of His power to deliver them and us from the bondage of sin. Yes, the deliverance from Egypt was itself a demonstration not only of God's power, but also of His desire to lead them from the bondage of sin, that bondage in which the covenant from Sinai holds men, because Hagar, who is the covenant from Sinai, was an Egyptian. So when the people came to Sinai, God simply referred them to what He had already done, and then said, "Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine." Ex.19:5. To what covenant did He refer?--Evidently to the one already in existence, His covenant with Abraham. If they would simply keep God's covenant, that is, God's promise,--keep the faith,--they would be a peculiar treasure unto God, for God, as the possessor of all the earth, was able to do with them all that He had promised. The fact that they in their self-sufficiency rashly took the whole responsibility upon themselves, does not prove that God led them into making that covenant, but the contrary. He was leading them out of bondage, not into it, and the apostle plainly tells us that covenant from Sinai was nothing but bondage.

Here’s the Patriarchs and Prophets quote:

Quote:
Patriarchs and Prophets

Another compact--called in Scripture the "old" covenant--was formed between God and Israel at Sinai, and was then ratified by the blood of a sacrifice. The Abrahamic covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ, and it is called the "second," or "new," covenant, because the blood by which it was sealed was shed after the blood of the first covenant. That the new covenant was valid in the days of Abraham is evident from the fact that it was then confirmed both by the promise and by the oath of God--the "two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie." Hebrews 6:18. {PP 371.1}

But if the Abrahamic covenant contained the promise of redemption, why was another covenant formed at Sinai? In their bondage the people had to a great extent lost the knowledge of God and of the principles of the Abrahamic covenant. In delivering them from Egypt, God sought to reveal to them His power and His mercy, that they might be led to love and trust Him. He brought them down to the Red Sea--where, pursued by the Egyptians, escape seemed impossible--that they might realize their utter helplessness, their need of divine aid; and then He wrought deliverance for them. Thus they were filled with love and gratitude to God and with confidence in His power to help them. He had bound them to Himself as their deliverer from temporal bondage. {PP 371.2}

But there was a still greater truth to be impressed upon their minds. Living in the midst of idolatry and corruption, they had no true conception of the holiness of God, of the exceeding sinfulness of their own hearts, their utter inability, in themselves, to render obedience to God's law, and their need of a Saviour. All this they must be taught. {PP 371.3}

God brought them to Sinai; He manifested His glory; He gave them His law, with the promise of great blessings on condition of obedience: "If ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then . . . ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." Exodus 19:5, 6. The people did not realize the sinfulness of their own hearts, and that without Christ it was impossible for them to keep God's law; and they readily entered into covenant with God. Feeling that they were able to establish their own righteousness, they declared, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." Exodus 24:7. They had witnessed the proclamation of the law in awful majesty, and had trembled with terror before the mount; and yet only a few weeks passed before they broke their covenant with God, and bowed down to worship a graven image. They could not hope for the favor of God through a covenant which they had broken; and now, seeing their sinfulness and their need of pardon, they were brought to feel their need of the Saviour revealed in the Abrahamic covenant and shadowed forth in the sacrificial offerings. Now by faith and love they were bound to God as their deliverer from the bondage of sin. Now they were prepared to appreciate the blessings of the new covenant. {PP 371.4}

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. "This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:33, 34. {PP 372.1}

The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Then the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit will bring forth "the fruits of the Spirit." Through the grace of Christ we shall live in obedience to the law of God written upon our hearts. Having the Spirit of Christ, we shall walk even as He walked. Through the prophet He declared of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And when among men He said, "The Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him." John 8:29. {PP 372.2}

The apostle Paul clearly presents the relation between faith and the law under the new covenant. He says: "Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh"--it could not justify man, because in his sinful nature he could not keep the law--"God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 5:1; 3:31; 8:3, 4. {PP 373.1}

Here are the other quotes I posted:

Quote:
Assorted Quotes

God's favor toward Israel had always been conditional on their obedience. At the foot of Sinai they had entered into covenant relationship with Him as His "peculiar treasure. . . above all people." Solemnly they had promised to follow in the path of obedience. "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do," they had said. Exodus 19:5, 8. And when, a few days afterward, God's law was spoken from Sinai, and additional instruction in the form of statutes and judgments was communicated through Moses, the Israelites with one voice had again promised, "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do." At the ratification of the covenant, the people had once more united in declaring, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient," Exodus 24:3, 7. God had chosen Israel as His people, and they had chosen Him as their King. {PK 293.1}

Preparation was now made for the ratification of the covenant, according to God's directions. . . . {1BC 1107.2}

Here the people received the conditions of the covenant. They made a solemn covenant with God, typifying the covenant made between God and every believer in Jesus Christ. The conditions were plainly laid before the people. They were not left to misunderstand them. When they were requested to decide whether they would agree to all the conditions given, they unanimously consented to obey every obligation. They had already consented to obey God's commandments. The principles of the law were now particularized, that they might know how much was involved in covenanting to obey the law; and they accepted the specifically defined particulars of the law. {1BC 1107.3}

If the Israelites had obeyed God's requirements, they would have been practical Christians. They would have been happy; for they would have been keeping God's ways, and not following the inclinations of their own natural hearts. Moses did not leave them to misconstrue the words of the Lord or to misapply His requirements. He wrote all the words of the Lord in a book, that they might be referred to afterward. In the mount he had written them as Christ Himself dictated them. {1BC 1107.4}

Bravely did the Israelites speak the words promising obedience to the Lord, after hearing His covenant read in the audience of the people. They said, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." Then the people were set apart and sealed to God. A sacrifice was offered to the Lord. A portion of the blood of the sacrifice was sprinkled upon the altar. This signified that the people had consecrated themselves--body, mind, and soul--to God. A portion was sprinkled upon the people. This signified that through the sprinkled blood of Christ, God graciously accepted them as His special treasure. Thus the Israelites entered into a solemn covenant with God (MS 126, 1901). {1BC 1107.5}

The covenant that God made with His people at Sinai is to be our refuge and defense....This covenant is of just as much force today as it was when the Lord made it with ancient Israel. {AG 142.2}

[Ex 19:7, 8 quoted, which includes, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do] This is the pledge that God's people are to make in these last days. Their acceptance with God depends on a faithful fulfillment of the terms of their agreement with Him. God includes in His covenant all who will obey Him. {1BC 1103.11}

Waggoner wrote, “The covenant from Sinai . . . consisted merely of the promise of the people to keep the law . . . it was simply a promise to make themselves righteous by their own works . . . He did not induce them to make that covenant at Sinai.”

Whereas Ellen wrote, “The covenant that God made with His people at Sinai is to be our refuge and defense . . . This covenant is of just as much force today as it was when the Lord made it with ancient Israel . . . “All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.” This is the pledge that God's people are to make in these last days.”

The OC was a necessary inconvenience. It was “contrary” (Col 2:14) to them in that it was a huge hassle to operate and observe day after day, year after year. But it was needful to remind the “prone to forget” Jews 1) just how bad sin is, 2) that sin and salvation cost the death of Jesus, and 3) the importance of trusting in Jesus to empower them to experience “righteousness and true holiness” (Eph 4:24).

But all those feasts and ceremonies were a big burden. They were tedious, costly, and time consuming. It was a form of “bondage” (Gal 4:24). They had to work like slaves to keep everything up and running right. It’s a good thing it all ended on the cross with Jesus. But we still need to work hard every day to remember what the OC stood for. In this sense it has "just as much force today" as it did back then. In its place, however, Jesus gave us the Communion Service, which is far less wearisome and far more rewarding.

The OC was, therefore, initiated, designed, and implemented by God to teach the Jews and us how to live in harmony with the conditions of the NC. It was never intended to replace the NC. “Now they were prepared to appreciate the blessings of the new covenant . . . If the Israelites had obeyed God's requirements, they would have been practical Christians. They would have been happy; for they would have been keeping God's ways, and not following the inclinations of their own natural hearts.” But Waggoner seems to have felt differently about it. On this point I disagree with him.


Quote:
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

...The good works of the believer are wrought through the human agent by Christ himself. They are doers of the words of Christ, and will not only impart blessings of the highest order to others, but as they render implicit obedience to Christ, they represent his character, and bring joy to the heart of Christ, and to all the holy ones of heaven. {SSW, July 1, 1894 par. 6}

....While it is God that works in us to will and to do of his own good pleasure, we are to co-operate with him while he works through us. We must guard against lifting up our souls in self-esteem. But you will say, How am I to know that Christ is in my heart? If, when you are criticised or corrected in your way, and things do not go just as you think they ought to go,--if then you let your passion arise instead of bearing the correction and being patient and kind, Christ is not abiding in the heart. {RH, July 12, 1887 par. 9}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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