Tom, I was hoping you would address the point in 107667.

Question - Are people guilty of committing a certain sin, even though they are not currently committing it, because they have cultivated it in the past and might commit it again in the future?

Tom, does the sinless experience described in COL 69 you posted above apply only to certain end-time people?

Or, is this experience available now?

If so, do you know of any other quotes which describe people experiencing sinlessness before end-time events begin to unfold?

Everyone who believes on Christ, ... will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

M: Are people guilty of committing a certain sin, even though they are not currently committing it, because they have cultivated it in the past and might commit it again in the future?

T: Of course not. Why would you be guilty for something you might do in the future? I don't understand how your question makes any sense.

M: Tom, does the sinless experience described in COL 69 you posted above apply only to certain end-time people?

T: Since it says that when COL 69 happens, Christ will come again, this experience only takes place right before Christ comes.

M: Or, is this experience available now?

T: Depending on how strictly you define "now," the experience may be available now, but if it takes place now, then Christ will come now, since the statement says that when Christ's character is reproduced in His people, He will come and claim them as His own.

M: If so, do you know of any other quotes which describe people experiencing sinlessness before end-time events begin to unfold?

T: DA and COL have a number of similar quotes. For example, the last chapter "The Bridegroom Cometh" of COL. COL 69 is probably the clearest in connecting Christ's coming to what Christ's people do (as opposed to being a pre-ordained event by God, dependent on His timing).

Regarding HP 146.5, as I stated earlier, she appears to me to be speaking in terms of what happens when one is born again. For example: Everyone who believes on Christ, ... will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

She seems to be describing the characteristics of one who believes in Christ.

Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. {HP 146.5}

"Let us not love in word," the apostle writes, "but in deed and in truth." The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within. It is the atmosphere of this love surrounding the soul of the believer that makes him a savor of life unto life and enables God to bless his work. {AA 551.1}

Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance. {COL 384.2}

M: Are people guilty of committing a certain sin, even though they are not currently committing it, because they have cultivated it in the past and might commit it again in the future?

T: Of course not. Why would you be guilty for something you might do in the future? I don't understand how your question makes any sense.

M:I agree with you. But I’ve met people who believe Christians are guilty of sin because sin is a state of being, that having weaknesses and being predisposed to sin makes them guilty. But I disagree.

So, is it possible to experience individual sinlessness (as opposed to corporate sinlessness) before end-time events begin to unfold? Is this what you think HP 146.5 is describing (posted below)? If not this quote, then do you know of a quote that describes people experiencing individual sinlessness before end-time events begin to unfold?

Tom, is the "completeness of Christian character" (as described below) available to people now, before end-time events begin to unfold? Or, is this experience only available to those who pass through the shaking and partake of the latter rain?

Another question. Is the "completeness of Christian character" (as described above) the same thing as individual people reaching "the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" (as described in HP 146.5)? Or, do you see difference? If so, please explain.

Having weaknesses, imperfections, and defects do not make people guilty so long as they subdue them and keep them under the control of a sanctified will and mind. Do you agree?

Regarding the COL 69 quote, why do you think this hasn't happened yet? (i.e., that Christ's people haven't reproduced His character, so that He can come and claim them as His own)

M:Having weaknesses, imperfections, and defects do not make people guilty so long as they subdue them and keep them under the control of a sanctified will and mind. Do you agree?

Tom, do you agree? If so, do you also think believers can attain unto pre-fall sinlessness while subduing their weaknesses and imperfections and defects, while keeping them under the control of a sanctified will and mind? Or, do you think they must first totally eliminate their weaknesses and imperfections and defects before they can attain unto pre-fall sinlessness?

T:Regarding the COL 69 quote, why do you think this hasn't happened yet? (i.e., that Christ's people haven't reproduced His character, so that He can come and claim them as His own)

M:I'm not sure. Perhaps it has something to do with members of the Remnant Church not experiencing the truth as it is in Jesus. Or, maybe its because the whole world has not yet witnessed the truth as it is in Jesus revealed in the lives of members of the Remnant Church. Or, it might have something to do with the Remnant Church rejecting the messages God shared through J&W.

What do you think?

An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren [E.J.] Waggoner and [A.T.] Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (emphasis mine)

M: Having weaknesses, imperfections, and defects do not make people guilty so long as they subdue them and keep them under the control of a sanctified will and mind. Do you agree?

If so, do you also think believers can attain unto pre-fall sinlessness while subduing their weaknesses and imperfections and defects, while keeping them under the control of a sanctified will and mind?

Or, do you think they must first totally eliminate their weaknesses and imperfections and defects before they can attain unto pre-fall sinlessness?

T: I think of these things in somewhat different terms. First of all, you write that having imperfections, weaknesses, and so forth do not make people guilty so long as the subdue them. Regardless of whether or not they subdue these things, it is not these things which make people guilty, but their choices/actions/decisions/behavior which make them guilty. For example, we all have sinful natures. Our sinful natures do not make us guilty, regardless of how we respond to the temptation that comes to us from this nature.

T: Regarding how to obtain sinlessness, I think you're concentrating on the wrong thing. I think if one concentrates on sin, one is bound to experience defeat. As we behold Christ, we become like Him. Becoming like Christ leads to victory over sin. I think Christlikeness needs to be the emphasis, and then overcoming sin becomes a consequence of that.

T: Regarding the COL 69 quote, why do you think this hasn't happened yet? (i.e., that Christ's people haven't reproduced His character, so that He can come and claim them as His own)

M: I'm not sure. Perhaps it has something to do with members of the Remnant Church not experiencing the truth as it is in Jesus. Or, maybe its because the whole world has not yet witnessed the truth as it is in Jesus revealed in the lives of members of the Remnant Church. Or, it might have something to do with the Remnant Church rejecting the messages God shared through J&W. What do you think?

T: From 1SM 234, 5 we read: An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren [E.J.] Waggoner and [A.T.] Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (emphasis mine)

I think the last sentence, underlined, answers the question I raised. The light that is to lighten the earth with glory is a reference to Rev. 18:1, the "other angel," to which she refers in other places as "the loud cry of the third angel's message" or "the latter rain." This light came in the form of a message. The word "gospel" means "good news," which is a message from God. I think the reason Christ hasn't come is because the message which prepares His coming has not been received. When that message is received, it will produce the harvest spoken of in COL 69.

I agree having weaknesses, imperfections, and defects do not make people guilty. But I’m still not sure what you believe about attaining unto prefall sinlessness as it pertains to having weaknesses, imperfections, and defects. Can people still have inherent weaknesses, imperfections, and defects and attain unto prefall sinlessness (by focusing on Christ and Him crucified rather than on not sinning)?

That’s why people need books like Creeping Compromises to know and understand the difference between sinning and being like Jesus. Do you agree?

Amen! Now for the hard part – Can we summarize that “message” in 100 words or less? Or, is it too complicated? What truths must be understood, experienced, and proclaimed to the world before Jesus can return?