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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #108902
02/24/09 07:25 PM
02/24/09 07:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Christ never yielded to the temptations which come from hereditary inclinations. He shared in our heredity, being tempted as we are tempted, but never yielded.

Nicely worded, Tom.

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #108903
02/24/09 07:38 PM
02/24/09 07:38 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
You keep breaking the letter off at an awkward spot, leaving out critical information. This has already been pointed out.

No, I'm not leaving out critical information. She is making several comparisons and contrasts at the same time, and this has already been pointed out. In this section she is clearly contrasting Adam’s posterity with Christ:

1- "Because of sin, his [Adam’s] posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience.

But

2- Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. ... not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. ... His birth was a miracle of God... “Therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." These words are not addressed to any human being, except to the Son of the Infinite God."


Quote:
Quote:
By the way, you did not answer the question. Are propensities of disobedience evil (sinful) or not?

You're equating "sinful" with "evil," which, in this context, is incorrect. Christ had sinful flesh. Should we call this "evil flesh"? Neither Ellen White nor her contemporaries said this, AFAIR. Similarly, neither she nor her contemporaries said Christ took and evil nature. So let's be careful that we're accurate with the terms we use.
So if you're asking if they're "evil," I would say no. If you're asking if they're sinful, if you mean in the sense that Christ had sinful flesh, or took a sinful nature, that would be fine.

She says:

“Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. ... not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity.”

Therefore,

Propensities of sin = evil propensities. Correct?

And propensities of sin are sinful propensities. Or do you disagree?

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #108904
02/24/09 07:45 PM
02/24/09 07:45 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: Rosnagela
"Because of sin, his [Adam's] posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience." {13MR 18.1}

So, as you see it, propensities of disobedience are not evil (or sinful)?

Yes, it is sinful; nevertheless, sinful and sinning are two entirely different realities. The "form and nature" Jesus took upon Himself were sinful as opposed to the sinless form and nature A&E possessed in Eden. Jesus' human faculties of mind and body (i.e. higher and lower powers) were morally, physically, intellectually, and spiritually sinful as opposed to the sinless faculties of mind and body A&E possessed in Eden.

Whether the faculties of mind and body are sinful or sinless it matters not so far as cultivating sinless character traits is concerned. Partaking of the divine nature, combining the human and divine natures, enables believers to use their morally, physically, intellectually, and spiritually sinful higher and lower powers to cultivate sinless character traits. Which is precisely what Jesus did.

"It was in the order of God that Christ should take upon himself the form and nature of fallen man, that he might be made perfect through suffering, and endure himself the strength of Satan's temptations, that he might the better know how to succor those who should be tempted. {4aSG 115.3}

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #108906
02/24/09 08:10 PM
02/24/09 08:10 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
This question was made in view of Tom's statement that "an evil propensity is not and cannot be a hereditary inclination."

I would also quote the following:

"No longer let any evil influence or propensity, natural or acquired, lead you to subordinate the claims of future, eternal interests to the common affairs of this life." {UL 313.5}

"Natural" here logically means "inherited."

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #108908
02/24/09 09:25 PM
02/24/09 09:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
In the fullness of time He was to be revealed in human form. He was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man. -- The Signs of the Times, May 29, 1901.

That looks like a clear case where the SOP tells us Jesus took a nature that lacked sinfulness, i.e. a sinless nature. The next item to be settled is what did she mean by "nature" in this context.....

What is the sinfulness of man? It refers to the corruption and contamination that occurs when sinners indulge sin. Listen:

Evil habits and practices are bringing upon men disease of every kind. Let the understanding be convinced by education as to the sinfulness of abusing and degrading the powers that God has given. {2MCP 690.4}

The people did not realize the sinfulness of their own hearts, and that without Christ it was impossible for them to keep God's law; and they readily entered into covenant with God. {PP 371.4}

We may find by searching the Word the virtues of obedience in contrast with the sinfulness of disobedience. "As by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." {RC 132.7}

[The 144,000] are fully conscious of the sinfulness of their lives, they see their weakness and unworthiness; and they are ready to despair. {PK 588.1}

The great trial of Christ in the wilderness on the point of appetite was to leave man an example of self-denial. This long fast was to convict men of the sinfulness of things in which professed Christians indulge. The victory which Christ gained in the wilderness was to show man the sinfulness of the very things in which he takes such pleasure. {SD 141.2}

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #108909
02/24/09 09:32 PM
02/24/09 09:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
"Because of sin, his [Adam's] posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience." {13MR 18.1}

So, as you see it, propensities of disobedience are not evil (or sinful)?

This question was made in view of Tom's statement that "an evil propensity is not and cannot be a hereditary inclination."

I would also quote the following:

"No longer let any evil influence or propensity, natural or acquired, lead you to subordinate the claims of future, eternal interests to the common affairs of this life." {UL 313.5}

"Natural" here logically means "inherited."

All influences, propensities, inclinations, tendencies that tempt us to sin are evil and sinful. Nevertheless, having them dwelling within us, "that is, in our flesh", does not corrupt or contaminate us while we are abiding in Jesus. So too, Jesus was not corrupted or contaminated by having them dwelling within His sinful flesh.

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #108915
02/24/09 10:56 PM
02/24/09 10:56 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding #108903, you're breaking off the comparison at the wrong spot. You should read the entire paragraph. You're not making the right comparison.

If you look at the paragraph as a whole, you can see she is saying that Adam, with an unfallen nature, yielded to temptation, whereas Christ, with a fallen nature, did not. It is evident that Baker was contradicting this idea in regards to what he was teaching relating to evil propensities, because EGW several times emphasized that Christ did not sin. If evil propensities had to do with what Christ inherited genetically, there would have been no need to emphasize that Christ did not sin. She could have said something like, "Although Christ was Adam's posterity, unlike the rest of Adam's posterity, Christ's heredity was different, because He did not inherit tendencies to evil" which would have agreed with what you're suggesting.

But this isn't what she taught. She taught that Christ, like every other child of Adam, accepted the working of the law of heredity. So to take the interpretation you are suggesting not only breaks a paragraph off in the middle, it doesn't make grammatical sense ("not for one moment" doesn't apply to genetic traits), it doesn't match the emphasis on the letter that Christ did not sin, it doesn't agree with she herself taught elsewhere, and it doesn't match the understanding the her contemporaries had of her beliefs, and understand which she was aware of.

So your suggested interpretation is swimming too hard upstream.

Regarding if propensities of sin could mean evil propensities, it seems it could, given how she used it in one spot. However, in another spot, she said that Adam's posterity, which of course includes Christ, had "inherent propensities of disobedience," so in this spot it cannot mean "evil propensities" since elsewhere she said Christ did not have these.

I don't understand why the evidence of a private letter would be preferred over:

1.Her teaching elsewhere in works she had published herself.
2.Direct endorsement of postlapsarian sermon by W. W. Prescott.
3.Ongoing endorsements of Jones and Waggoner, including in the context of their teaching on this subject.
4.The testimony of her contemporaries.

It's like we have say five strains of evidence, four of which are strong, and one of which is weak, and we set aside the four strong ones in favor of the one weak one.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #108916
02/24/09 10:59 PM
02/24/09 10:59 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
"No longer let any evil influence or propensity, natural or acquired, lead you to subordinate the claims of future, eternal interests to the common affairs of this life." {UL 313.5}

"Natural" here logically means "inherited."


This natural evil influence could have been due to prenatal influences; it needn't have been genetic. We need to keep in mind that Christ, like every other child of Adam, accepted the working of the great law of heredity, so any interpretations we give to her statements elsewhere need to harmonize with this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Rosangela] #108947
02/25/09 05:14 AM
02/25/09 05:14 AM
teresaq  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
You keep breaking the letter off at an awkward spot, leaving out critical information. This has already been pointed out.

No, I'm not leaving out critical information. She is making several comparisons and contrasts at the same time, and this has already been pointed out. In this section she is clearly contrasting Adam’s posterity with Christ:

1- "Because of sin, his [Adam’s] posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience.

But

2- Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. ... not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. ... His birth was a miracle of God... “Therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." These words are not addressed to any human being, except to the Son of the Infinite God."


i am only jumping in to say that the way roseangela presents it is the way i have understood that statement when i read it.

im not real interested in getting into an argument over how one believes i should read it, tho, thank you very much. smile


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: teresaq] #108950
02/25/09 03:16 PM
02/25/09 03:16 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
One should be interested in what the truth is, shouldn't one?

If this were all the evidence we had on the subject, that would be one thing. One could make an argument it should be read one way, or another. But it's not. There's a lot of other evidence to consider.

The mere fact that one would so rely on this one private letter is just mind boggling to me. There's a ton of much better evidence to consider.

For example, consider the testimony of her contemporaries and the position of the SDA church during her entire ministry of 60+ years and 40 years after. Does it really make sense to throw away 100 years of history because of a few sentences in a private letter?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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