There are always at least two ways of looking at the same thing. My earlier post looked at this from the perspective of love. However, we can look at it from the perspective of law just as easily, for God's character of love is also revealed through His law. The law of God is but a reflection of His character.

In other words, yes, God's law required the sacrifice in order to save us. Keep in mind here that wherever we see the word "law" we could accurately substitute the word "love" and vice versa.

Now, let me share the next part of my growing perspective on this.

The law required the death of a sinless being to substitute for the death required of sinners by the same law.

1) Sinners must die, according to the law of love, because sinners cannot be happy, and love demands that all are able to live in perfect happiness, harmony, and peace.

2) A sinless substitute must be found for multiple reasons: a) for a sinner to be able to substitute for himself is a ridiculous scenario, akin to pulling oneself up by his bootstraps; b) a sinner who dies was already under the death penalty, and therefore has nothing to lose, so it represents no sacrifice; c) other sinners would have zero appreciation for the death of a fellow sinner in their behalf, since, as noted in the previous point, that sinner was already condemned to die, and also, that sinner was just like them--so they could proudly think themselves perhaps more worthy of this dubious honor; and d) only a "wrongful death" would help us sinners to see the true depth to which we had arrived and the true love of our savior in spite of it.

Now, why could that substitute have not been one of the perfect angels? We are told that some of the angels volunteered for the role. Why not them?

We need, once again, to look no further than our own selfish hearts for the answer. What would you think if the One who had created you, the Master of the universe, sacrificed another of His creatures to atone for you?

Would we not think that this were unfair? Would not Satan have had justification in insinuating to us that God is a cruel dictator?

Therefore, there was only one substitute that could possibly have stood in the gap; and praise God He did!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Excellent!

Here's something I wrote earlier regarding this subject, a little over a year ago, which touches upon a similar theme you're bringing out.
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Here's an interesting quote from Ellen White:



It's the last sentence I find particularly interesting:



It seems to me this is what she had in mind as to why the death penalty was necessary.

Let's consider another well known proof text from EGW regarding penal substitution.



This states that justice demands that sin not merely be pardoned, but that a death penalty must be executed. But here it doesn't explain why. I think the reason why can be inferred from the first quote I cited. If sin were merely pardoned, but no death sentence was executed, it would not seem that sin had the consequence of death, which would embolden people in sin, which would, of course, lead to their death. So the only way God could prevent His creatures from dying involved convincing them of the awful consequences of sin.

The reason it says justice would not be satisfied is because justice would hardly be satisfied if man were emboldened in sin.

There are two notable exceptions: 1) Law cannot pardon; it can only condemn. Whereas, love can pardon. 2) Law cannot save; it can only condemn. Whereas, love can save.


Can you support this idea with inspired passages? From what I've read about it, the law demands death for sin. That's it. I haven't read where the law demands a divine substitute to pardon and save sinners.


Yes, love demands this, but not law. The law merely demands obedience and death for disobedience.


Again, can you support these ideas from the Bible or the SOP? From what I've read about it, how and why the death of Jesus is a just and valid substitute is consider an unexplainable mystery at this point. God hasn't explained it to us yet.

BTW, the law merely demands death for sin. Therefore, the immediate punishment and execution of the sinner would satisfy the just and loving demands of law and justice. The law does not demand restitution or reconciliation. It simply demands death in the day thou eatest thereof.


While it is true Jesus was the only one qualified to pay our sin debt of death it does not, however, explain why and how it satisfies the just and loving demands of law and justice. This is still a mystery.

Tom, your explanation above of why the death of Jesus was required focuses on the affect it can have on sinners in influencing them to cease sinning and to love and obey God. However, it doesn't address the matter of past sins. So, what about past sins? What does the law require? What does justice demand? Is law and justice willing to ignore past sins if sinners to cease to sin and love and obey God? Or, does law and justice still demand that death must happen in consequence of past sins, and is this one of the reasons why Jesus had to die?

The standard by which to measure character is the royal law. The law is the sin detector. By the law is the knowledge of sin. But the sinner is constantly being drawn to Jesus by the wonderful manifestation of His love in that He humiliated Himself to die a shameful death upon the cross. What a study is this! Angels have striven, earnestly longed, to look into this wonderful mystery. It is a study that can tax the highest human intelligence, that man, fallen, deceived by Satan, taking Satan's side of the question, can be conformed to the image of the Son of the infinite God--that man shall be like Him, that, because of the righteousness of Christ given to man, God will love man, fallen but redeemed, even as He loved His Son. Read it right out of the living oracles. {LHU 150.2}

It was the marvel of all the universe that Christ should humble Himself to save fallen man. That He who had passed from star to star, from world to world, superintending all, by His providence supplying the needs of every order of being in His vast creation--that He should consent to leave His glory and take upon Himself human nature, was a mystery which the sinless intelligences of other worlds desired to understand. When Christ came to our world in the form of humanity, all were intensely interested in following Him as He traversed, step by step, the bloodstained path from the manger to Calvary. Heaven marked the insult and mockery that He received, and knew that it was at Satan's instigation. They marked the work of counteragencies going forward; Satan constantly pressing darkness, sorrow, and suffering upon the race, and Christ counteracting it. They watched the battle between light and darkness as it waxed stronger. And as Christ in His expiring agony upon the cross cried out, "It is finished" (John 19:30), a shout of triumph rang through every world and through heaven itself. The great contest that had been so long in progress in this world was now decided, and Christ was conqueror. His death had answered the question whether the Father and the Son had sufficient love for man to exercise self-denial and a spirit of sacrifice. Satan had revealed his true character as a liar and a murderer. It was seen that the very same spirit with which he had ruled the children of men who were under his power, he would have manifested if permitted to control the intelligences of heaven. With one voice the loyal universe united in extolling the divine administration. {PP 69.3}

If the law could be changed, man might have been saved without the sacrifice of Christ; but the fact that it was necessary for Christ to give His life for the fallen race, proves that the law of God will not release the sinner from its claims upon him. It is demonstrated that the wages of sin is death. When Christ died, the destruction of Satan was made certain. But if the law was abolished at the cross, as many claim, then the agony and death of God's dear Son were endured only to give to Satan just what he asked; then the prince of evil triumphed, his charges against the divine government were sustained. The very fact that Christ bore the penalty of man's transgression is a mighty argument to all created intelligences that the law is changeless; that God is righteous, merciful, and self-denying; and that infinite justice and mercy unite in the administration of His government. {PP 70.1}

Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins. He sees Jesus upon the cross of Calvary. Why all this suffering? The law of Jehovah has been broken. The law of God's government in heaven and earth has been transgressed, and the penalty of sin is pronounced to be death. But "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Oh, what love, what matchless love! Christ, the Son of God, dying for guilty man! {3SM 193.4}

The sinner views the spirituality of the law of God and its eternal obligations. He sees the love of God in providing a substitute and surety for guilty man, and that substitute is One equal with God. This display of grace in the gift of salvation to the world fills the sinner with amazement. This love of God to man breaks every barrier down. He comes to the cross, which has been placed midway between divinity and humanity, and repents of his sins of transgression, because Christ has been drawing him to Himself. He does not expect the law to cleanse him from sin, for there is no pardoning quality in the law to save the transgressors of the law. He looks to the atoning Sacrifice as his only hope, through repentance toward God--because the laws of His government have been broken--and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ as the One who can save and cleanse the sinner from every transgression. {3SM 194.1}

The mediatorial work of Christ commenced with the commencement of human guilt and suffering and misery, as soon as man became a transgressor. The law was not abolished to save man and bring him into union with God. But Christ assumed the office of his surety and deliverer in becoming sin for man, that man might become the righteousness of God in and through Him who was one with the Father. Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. They are justified alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Father accepts the Son, and through the atoning sacrifice of His Son accepts the sinner. {3SM 194.2}

The scheme of redemption far exceeds the comprehension of the human mind. The great condescension on the part of God is a mystery that is beyond our fathoming. The greatness of the plan cannot be fully comprehended, nor could infinite Wisdom devise a plan that would surpass it. It could only be successful by the clothing of divinity with humanity, by Christ becoming man, and suffering the wrath which sin has made because of the transgression of God's law. Through this plan the great, the dreadful God can be just, and yet be the justifier of all who believe in Jesus, and who receive Him as their personal Saviour. This is the heavenly science of redemption, of saving men from eternal ruin, and can be carried out only through the incarnation of the Son of God in humanity, through His triumph over sin and death, and in seeking to fathom this plan all finite intelligences are baffled (Letter 43, 1895). {5BC 1133.4}

The work of redemption is called a mystery, and it is indeed the mystery by which everlasting righteousness is brought to all who believe. The race in consequence of sin was at enmity with God. Christ, at an infinite cost, by a painful process, mysterious to angels as well as to men, assumed humanity. Hiding His divinity, laying aside His glory, He was born a babe in Bethlehem. In human flesh He lived the law of God, that He might condemn sin in the flesh, and bear witness to heavenly intelligences that the law was ordained to life and to ensure the happiness, peace, and eternal good of all who obey. But the same infinite sacrifice that is life to those who believe is a testimony of condemnation to the disobedient, speaking death and not life (MS 29, 1899). {7BC 915.3}

PS - The quotes posted above demonstrate that the plan of salvation is mysterious and unexplainable.

May I point out that neither could love pardon?
God is love. Why could He not have merely pardoned us without all of the anguish and trouble of a sacrifice? "Without the shedding of blood" there is no remission for sin. Therefore, love may have driven God to this sacrificial act, but love alone has no power to save. It is equal to the law in this sense. I could just as easily make a case that the law demanded the blood of Christ as to say His love did.

However, let me further emphasize the point here: God loves all of His creatures. If love is able to save (as opposed to the law, which you claim is powerless), why will not all people be saved? If they are saved, is it not by fulfilling and keeping the law? Indeed, the law is just as much responsible for our salvation as is God's love, despite our traditional rhetoric to the contrary.



According to these verses, if we do not keep the commandments, it can be inferred that we also do not abide in God's love. Law equals love. Lawlessness receives God's hate.
I see that I worded this one poorly. I am not trying to say that the law demanded a substitute, I am trying to say that a sinless substitute was required by the law in order for sinners to escape the death penalty of the law.

Again, I see the law from the love perspective. God's law IS love. The law is given for our best good and happiness. "Thou shalt love..." is the fundamental law, as presented by Jesus.


If you want to let it remain a mystery for you, so be it. The mystery part in my mind is the sheer enormity of the love which God must have. We may never comprehend this fully.

See my foregoing comments, as I hope this is clarified better now.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Mike,

While I have no desire to refute this comment of yours, for it is certainly true, I would answer with a couple of questions.

1) Do you believe that we must understand at least part of this plan in order to be saved? and if so, how much?

2) Why discuss it in this thread if you already believe the answer to be shrouded in mystery which cannot be penetrated?

My take is, we certainly can understand a lot about it, and the more the better.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.