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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Tom]
#109186
03/01/09 06:17 PM
03/01/09 06:17 PM
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Kland, Tom can speak for himself. I have no knowledge of the different titles you used to describe the covenant. I am only aware of the EC, NC, and OC. I am also aware of covenant terms like Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic. I welcome Kland's comments. He seems to be seeing these issues similarly to how I do. If he says something I disagree with, I'll speak up. I think it helps to get another perspective involved. For example, I may have trouble seeing what it is you're addressing, whereas Kland catches it, so he can help out by responding to a question or point you've made that I missed. Then please explain to me what he meant by: Do you mean the New new covenant or the new old or the original-old-new covenant. Did you catch that Tom may not be at the same new-old, old-new, new-new, or old-old as what appears to me you are indicating?
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Tom]
#109187
03/01/09 06:25 PM
03/01/09 06:25 PM
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Regarding Moses, I like the way I put it, so I'll leave it like that. Then I'll never know what you believe about why God "commanded" Moses to kill sinners. Which, no doubt, will hinder me from ever fully understanding your view of God. Regarding your comment about the Jews being permitted to do things contrary to God's will, here is an example: Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard.(Matt. 19:8) My question implies this point and then goes on to ask, Did the law of Moses permit the Jews to violate the will of God and the law of God?
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Tom]
#109188
03/01/09 06:41 PM
03/01/09 06:41 PM
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2. Do any of the laws in the Law of Moses contradict the Law of God?
Did any of the instruction contradict the father's ideal in the Father/hunter story? Yes. Do you think any of it violated any laws?
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109207
03/01/09 09:38 PM
03/01/09 09:38 PM
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Then please explain to me what he meant by:
Do you mean the New new covenant or the new old or the original-old-new covenant. Did you catch that Tom may not be at the same new-old, old-new, new-new, or old-old as what appears to me you are indicating? He explained his meaning here: It just appeared to me that you two were talking about two different things. If Tom is using one idea for the New covenant, and you are using another, how productive would that be? Wouldn't it be much better to ensure that you are talking about the same things than seeing several posts before that conclusion is reached? T:Regarding Moses, I like the way I put it, so I'll leave it like that.
[quote]M:Then I'll never know what you believe about why God "commanded" Moses to kill sinners. Which, no doubt, will hinder me from ever fully understanding your view of God. I've been saying over and over again that the approach I think should be taken is to form a Model of God's character based on studying Jesus Christ, and only *then* go back and look at the OT. So I wouldn't say you'll never know what I believe about why God "commanded" Moses to kill sinners, unless you refuse to do what I've suggested. T:Regarding your comment about the Jews being permitted to do things contrary to God's will, here is an example: Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard.(Matt. 19:8)
M:My question implies this point and then goes on to ask, Did the law of Moses permit the Jews to violate the will of God and the law of God? I take it from your question that you believe it's possible to do things contrary to God's will without breaking the law, is that right? Regarding the specific question of divorce, Jesus Christ explained that divorce not granted on the legitimate grounds He explained leads to adultery. Do you agree with this?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109218
03/02/09 02:13 PM
03/02/09 02:13 PM
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Midland
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2. Do any of the laws in the Law of Moses contradict the Law of God?
Did any of the instruction contradict the father's ideal in the Father/hunter story? Yes. Do you think any of it violated any laws? I find his instruction contradicts the father's ideal. The father's ideal was for his son not to hunt. The son would not listen to his father's will. Rather than disowning his son, punishing his son, or refusing to allow his son to make a free choice, the father met the son up to what the son was willing to allow. The father then showed the son the best, safest, and most humane way to use the gun. Using the gun in the best, safest, and most human way did not contradict the father's ideal after the son made the choice to use the gun. It did contradict the father's ideal of not using the gun at all. At the same time, it was the father's ideal for his son to make freewill choices, and having made them, the father had to work with where his son was. The son did not have to follow the father's will in using the gun any more than he had to follow it in not hunting. But, the son was willing to follow the father's will in how to hunt. This will result in less harm, suffering, and penalty than if the son refuses on even this point.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: kland]
#109219
03/02/09 02:20 PM
03/02/09 02:20 PM
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Midland
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MM, why shouldn't Jesus' life, which was intended to represent Jesus of the Old Testament, be the basis upon which to understand the Old Testament?
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: kland]
#109226
03/02/09 03:56 PM
03/02/09 03:56 PM
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I liked your explanation on the father/hunter, kland. Especially this I found helpful: Using the gun in the best, safest, and most humane way did not contradict the father's ideal after the son made the choice to use the gun. It did contradict the father's ideal of not using the gun at all.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Tom]
#109246
03/02/09 05:45 PM
03/02/09 05:45 PM
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M: Then please explain to me what he meant by:
T: Do you mean the New new covenant or the new old or the original-old-new covenant. Did you catch that Tom may not be at the same new-old, old-new, new-new, or old-old as what appears to me you are indicating?
He explained his meaning here: It just appeared to me that you two were talking about two different things. If Tom is using one idea for the New covenant, and you are using another, how productive would that be? Wouldn't it be much better to ensure that you are talking about the same things than seeing several posts before that conclusion is reached? In what way are you and I viewing the NC and the OC differently? T:Regarding Moses, I like the way I put it, so I'll leave it like that.
M:Then I'll never know what you believe about why God "commanded" Moses to kill sinners. Which, no doubt, will hinder me from ever fully understanding your view of God.
T: I've been saying over and over again that the approach I think should be taken is to form a Model of God's character based on studying Jesus Christ, and only *then* go back and look at the OT. So I wouldn't say you'll never know what I believe about why God "commanded" Moses to kill sinners, unless you refuse to do what I've suggested. Do you trust me to arrive at the correct conclusion? If not, then please tell me plainly why God commanded Moses to kill sinners. You have never done this yet. You keep avoiding it. I don't understand why. T:Regarding your comment about the Jews being permitted to do things contrary to God's will, here is an example: Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard.(Matt. 19:8)
M:My question implies this point and then goes on to ask, Did the law of Moses permit the Jews to violate the will of God and the law of God?
T: I take it from your question that you believe it's possible to do things contrary to God's will without breaking the law, is that right? Yes. Contrary to His *idea* will when He permits it. T: Regarding the specific question of divorce, Jesus Christ explained that divorce not granted on the legitimate grounds He explained leads to adultery. Do you agree with this? Yes. On another note, do you agree God required capital punishment for specific crimes in the law of Moses?
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: kland]
#109248
03/02/09 05:50 PM
03/02/09 05:50 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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MM, why shouldn't Jesus' life, which was intended to represent Jesus of the Old Testament, be the basis upon which to understand the Old Testament? I believe His life and teachings represent everything we need to know about God in the OT and NT. Do you?
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Re: The Covenants
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109249
03/02/09 05:54 PM
03/02/09 05:54 PM
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SDA
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I find his instruction contradicts the father's ideal. Did it violate any laws to teach his son how to hunt humanely?
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