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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109028
02/26/09 08:28 PM
02/26/09 08:28 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Ok. How long until you suppose this comes up again? 
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109045
02/27/09 03:20 AM
02/27/09 03:20 AM
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Now that I know your answer to the title question of this thread it shouldn't have to come up again. BTW, your answer is - Yes!
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109074
02/27/09 04:53 PM
02/27/09 04:53 PM
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No, I definitely wouldn't say this, no way. Here's why. If you label something an "uncrucified sinful habit," that implies this is a habit which one knows about, and knows is wrong, and has chosen deliberately to continue doing it anyway. A born again person (using the common definition, not yours, which is a weaker one, meaning simply that the person has accepted Christ as their personal Savior, or been forgiven of their sins, or been justified by faith, to use three synonyms) would *not* have this characteristic.
I wouldn't answer this question as asked either yes or no, as it's unclear.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#109103
02/27/09 08:08 PM
02/27/09 08:08 PM
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Tom, I am encouraged by your unwillingness to say, yes, people are born again with uncrucified sinful habits. Let's use the following passage to explore what you believe. Which pre-conversion sins will born again believers (using your definition) continue to practice after they experience the miracle of rebirth? The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." {SD 300.3}
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109113
02/27/09 09:38 PM
02/27/09 09:38 PM
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Sins of which they are unaware (you believe this too).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#109189
03/01/09 06:48 PM
03/01/09 06:48 PM
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EGW: The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man.
T: If you label something an "uncrucified sinful habit," that implies this is a habit which one knows about, and knows is wrong, and has chosen deliberately to continue doing it anyway. Are people born again with "sins that were practiced before conversion"?
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109208
03/01/09 09:42 PM
03/01/09 09:42 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Your question is vague. As phrased, with the phrase in quotes, which may imply the context from where it was quoted from, I couldn't say no. However, without quotes, if "sins" refers specifically to sins which those who were born again are unaware of, I'd say yes, which is, again, the same thing you believe.
I'm unclear as to why you're asking this. We've been over this in great, great detail. I thought we were done with this for now. Do you have anything new to add or ask?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#109234
03/02/09 04:25 PM
03/02/09 04:25 PM
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Yeah, I thought we were done, too. But then you shocked me by answering the title question - "No, I definitely wouldn't say this, no way." You qualified by saying the phrase "uncrucified sinful habits" specifies known sins and that no truly born again person would continuing practicing them while abiding in Jesus.
Consequently, I tried to clarify what I mean by "uncrucified sinful habits" by using a quote from Ellen that expresses the same idea, namely, "The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man."
Do you think she is specifying only those sins the Holy Spirit made them aware of during the process of conversion? If so, please post inspired quotes (i.e. Bible or SOP) that verify this interpretation. Thank you.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109258
03/02/09 07:01 PM
03/02/09 07:01 PM
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I've been saying all along that a born again person won't practice known sins, so you should have expected my answer. You often state or ask things in a vague way that can be interpreted differently, so I have to take that into consideration in answering a question; that is, to try and guess which of different possible meanings you have in mind. So when you ask about practicing uncrucified sinful habits, I interpreted "uncrucified" as applying to known sins, since unknown since could hardly be crucified. Consequently, I tried to clarify what I mean by "uncrucified sinful habits" by using a quote from Ellen that expresses the same idea, namely, "The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man." This is what I was guessing you meant, so I responded no, in agreement with what she wrote. Do you think she is specifying only those sins the Holy Spirit made them aware of during the process of conversion? Of course. One could hardly put off sins of which one was unaware. If so, please post inspired quotes (i.e. Bible or SOP) that verify this interpretation. Thank you. Here's one: God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense. (3SM 217) Since one cannot put off a sin of which one is unaware, reasoning from common sense leads us to the conclusion that she didn't have these in mind. By the way, this is, again, the same thing you believe. We've been through this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Are we born again with uncrucified sinful habits?
[Re: Tom]
#109298
03/03/09 06:20 PM
03/03/09 06:20 PM
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Tom, the fact you didn't post an inspired quote that says people are born again practicing some of the sins they cultivated prior to experiencing conversion suggests it isn't true. BTW, which one of the following sins do you think born again believers might practice ignorantly and also explain why: Mark
7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Romans
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If you agree, though, that no truly born again believer will practice any of these sins ignorantly, then please name a sin they might practice ignorantly and why. Please post an inspired quote to verify it, that is, a quote that says this particular sin might be practiced in ignorance after rebirth. PS - Typically at this point in the discussion you complain that such a request misses the point and you refuse to honor it. Or, you argue that what really matters is the character of God and the sinless example of Jesus and that focusing on sin is unproductive or even counterproductive. For this reason we never finish this discussion. So, please humor me and honor my request. Thank you. Can you imagine Jesus ignoring my sincere request?
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