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Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #109251
03/02/09 05:56 PM
03/02/09 05:56 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
I liked your explanation on the father/hunter, kland. Especially this I found helpful:

Quote:
Using the gun in the best, safest, and most humane way did not contradict the father's ideal after the son made the choice to use the gun. It did contradict the father's ideal of not using the gun at all.

How did it *not* contradict his ideal will to use the gun to hunt humanely?

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #109260
03/02/09 07:24 PM
03/02/09 07:24 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
What?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #109291
03/03/09 02:09 PM
03/03/09 02:09 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
It seems to me he is asking how "using the gun in the best, safest, and most humane way" did *not* contradict his ideal will to use the gun to hunt humanely.

?!

Re: The Covenants [Re: kland] #109293
03/03/09 02:46 PM
03/03/09 02:46 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If this is the question, this is simply an application of the more general question of how God's permissive does not contradict His ideal will.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Tom] #109309
03/03/09 07:59 PM
03/03/09 07:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Kland
Using the gun in the best, safest, and most humane way did not contradict the father's ideal after the son made the choice to use the gun.

Are you referring to the father's original ideal will (i.e. not to hunt) or the father's subsequent ideal will (i.e. how to hunt humanely)? In any case, were any laws violated?

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #109310
03/03/09 08:01 PM
03/03/09 08:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, please address 109246.

Kland, please address 109248 and 109249.

Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #109355
03/04/09 02:51 AM
03/04/09 02:51 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
In what way are you and I viewing the NC and the OC differently?


I view the NC and OC along the lines of what Waggoner said:

Quote:
That the covenant and promise of God are one and the same thing, is clearly seen from Gal.3:17, where it appears that to disannul the covenant would be to make void the promise. In Genesis 17 we read that God made a covenant with Abraham to give him the land of Canaan--and with it the whole world--for an everlasting possession; but Gal.3:18 says that God gave it to him by promise. God's covenants with men can be nothing else than promises to them: "Who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things." Rom.11:35,36. It is so rare for men to do anything without expecting an equivalent, that theologians have taken it for granted that it is the same with God. So they begin their dissertations on God's covenant with the statement that a covenant is "a mutual agreement between two or more persons, to do or refrain from doing certain things." But God does not make bargains with men, because He knows that they could not fulfil their part. After the flood God made a covenant with every beast of the earth, and with every fowl; but the beasts and the birds did not promise anything in return. Gen.9:9-16. They simply received the favor at the hand of God. That is all we can do. God promises us everything that we need, and more than we can ask or think, as a gift. We give Him ourselves, that is, nothing, and He gives us Himself, that is, everything. That which makes all the trouble is that even when men are willing to recognize the Lord at all, they want to make bargains with Him. They want it to be a "mutual" affair--a transaction in which they will be considered as on a par with God. But whoever deals with God must deal with Him on His own terms, that is, on a basis of fact--that we have nothing and are nothing, and He has everything and is everything, and gives everything. (The Glad Tidings)


Ellen White said:

Quote:
Since I made the statement last Sabbath that the view of the covenants as it had been taught by Brother Waggoner was truth, it seems that great relief has come to many minds.-- Letter 30, 1890


Quote:
Night before last I was shown that evidences in regard to the covenants were clear and convincing. Yourself, Brother B, Brother C, and others are spending your investigative powers for naught to produce a position on the covenants to vary from the position that Brother [E. J.] Waggoner has presented. (9MR 328)


It seems to me you are doing precisely this, spending your investigative powers for naught to produce a position on the covenants to vary from the position that Brother Waggoner has presented.

To answer your question briefly, in the points where you differ from Waggoner's view, you and I differ.

T: Regarding the specific question of divorce, Jesus Christ explained that divorce not granted on the legitimate grounds He explained leads to adultery. Do you agree with this?

Quote:
Yes. On another note, do you agree God required capital punishment for specific crimes in the law of Moses?


In a sense.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #109357
03/04/09 02:57 AM
03/04/09 02:57 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T: I've been saying over and over again that the approach I think should be taken is to form a Model of God's character based on studying Jesus Christ, and only *then* go back and look at the OT. So I wouldn't say you'll never know what I believe about why God "commanded" Moses to kill sinners, unless you refuse to do what I've suggested.

M:Do you trust me to arrive at the correct conclusion? If not, then please tell me plainly why God commanded Moses to kill sinners. You have never done this yet. You keep avoiding it. I don't understand why.


Yes to the first question, if you got about the task with integrity. Why not?

Quote:
T: I take it from your question that you believe it's possible to do things contrary to God's will without breaking the law, is that right?

M:Yes. Contrary to His *idea* will when He permits it.


I take it you mean "ideal." You're saying that one can do things contrary to God's ideal will without breaking the law? Isn't the law a transcript of God's character, and as such, an expression of His idea will? So how can one act contrary to God's idea will and not break the law?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Covenants [Re: Mountain Man] #109379
03/04/09 02:14 PM
03/04/09 02:14 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: kland
MM, why shouldn't Jesus' life, which was intended to represent Jesus of the Old Testament, be the basis upon which to understand the Old Testament?

I believe His life and teachings represent everything we need to know about God in the OT and NT. Do you?


You just continually leave me with my mouth hanging open. That's why I did not address this. How does your statement even begin to fit with anything you have said before? Is this similar to the internal conflict of, God directly kills, maims, and destroys men, women, and children, but that demonstrates His love?

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to explain how if Jesus' life and teachings represent everything we need to know about God in the OT and NT, how you see Jesus in the Old Testament behaving different than that of the New.

Re: The Covenants [Re: kland] #109432
03/05/09 05:36 PM
03/05/09 05:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
It seems to me you are doing precisely this, spending your investigative powers for naught to produce a position on the covenants to vary from the position that Brother Waggoner has presented. To answer your question briefly, in the points where you differ from Waggoner's view, you and I differ.

Where do I differ from Waggoner and you?

Originally Posted By: Tom
M: On another note, do you agree God required capital punishment for specific crimes in the law of Moses?

T: In a sense.

Please elaborate.

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